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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#109476: Jan 25th 2016 at 9:29:18 AM

No, and in this case it's not an example anyway. Definitely an example of something else, though, like terminal pants-on-head syndrome.

edited 25th Jan '16 9:30:04 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109477: Jan 25th 2016 at 9:30:05 AM

Oh Y'all Qaeda. Why must you be so funny.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109478: Jan 25th 2016 at 11:41:02 AM

Considering Trump, it would appear the business class isn't entirely bothered with the bigotry
Trump's anti-free trade/globalization and anti-immigration, just like Sanders, which puts him on the opposing side of pretty much the entire "business class". Assuming you meant large corporations. The majority of his supporters are not "the business class", but lower to middle class, poorly educated women.

edited 25th Jan '16 11:48:55 AM by Nihlus1

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#109479: Jan 25th 2016 at 11:44:16 AM

Sanders is anti-immigration? I also thought Trump and Sanders probably agree on globalization and free trade, but immigration?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#109480: Jan 25th 2016 at 11:46:58 AM

The Sherif's probably sympathetic to the Hammond's anyway. People out their have a very different relationship with the government that most of us. Also he's probably just tired of the whole thing and wants it to go away, a bit like letting the screaming children have their toy. Of corse that will encourage them to scream even more.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#109481: Jan 25th 2016 at 11:49:19 AM

[up]x6 Well, the militants, dickish as they may be, as of yet haven't hurt anyone or taken hostages, so......

edited 25th Jan '16 11:49:54 AM by nervmeister

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109482: Jan 25th 2016 at 11:53:47 AM

[up][up][up]Yes, he is extremely anti-immigration, because he believes the common fallacy that the US economy is all or nothing; that the country can't prosper unless it stops letting poor people in. The only difference between them is that Trump wants to deport illegals, while Sanders only wants to stop NEW immigrants from coming (legally or illegally).

Ezra Klein: You said being a democratic socialist means a more international view. I think if you take global poverty that seriously, it leads you to conclusions that in the US are considered out of political bounds. Things like sharply raising the level of immigration we permit, even up to a level of open borders. About sharply increasing ...

Bernie Sanders: Open borders? No, that's a Koch brothers proposal.

Ezra Klein: Really?

Bernie Sanders: Of course. That's a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States. ...

Ezra Klein: But it would make ...

Bernie Sanders: Excuse me ...

Ezra Klein: It would make a lot of global poor richer, wouldn't it?

Bernie Sanders: It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that.

This, by the way, is one of the many reasons why Sanders' supporters are almost purely young, middle class whites.

edited 25th Jan '16 11:56:24 AM by Nihlus1

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#109483: Jan 25th 2016 at 11:56:21 AM

[up]Do you have a source for that? The support I mean?

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109484: Jan 25th 2016 at 11:58:17 AM

You mean this source for the big block quote? His stance on immigration is well-documented.

EDIT: Oh, I'm sorry. You meant that part about his supporters being almost purely white. Well this South Carolina poll, for one. There's also this poll where Clinton was in the lead vs Sanders on the Latino vote 73-3.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:01:27 PM by Nihlus1

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#109485: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:00:55 PM

That's South Caronlina. And not really much to go on, but I guess there are probably others like that? But thank you, that is surprising. And unfortunate.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:01:40 PM by LSBK

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109486: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:01:04 PM

The interview where Sanders says that is here

His more written statements are here

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#109487: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:01:22 PM

Yeah, that is immensely disappointing.

Oh really when?
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109488: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:06:11 PM

At least he acknowledges some important bits, like unfair trades that cause poverty in other countries. I do not think Hillary touches that.

So one way or another, you guys are still screeeeeeeeewed.

You could, of course, build that wall...

So build that wall and build it strong

'Cause we'll be there before too long

edited 25th Jan '16 12:06:45 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#109489: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:10:48 PM

Nihlus conveniently forgets the rest:

Bernie Sanders It would make everybody in America poorer —you're doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don't think there's any country in the world that believes in that. If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or UK or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people. What right-wing people in this country would love is an open-border policy. Bring in all kinds of people, work for $2 or $3 an hour, that would be great for them. I don't believe in that. I think we have to raise wages in this country, I think we have to do everything we can to create millions of jobs.

You know what youth unemployment is in the United States of America today? If you're a white high school graduate, it's 33 percent, Hispanic 36 percent, African American 51 percent. You think we should open the borders and bring in a lot of low-wage workers, or do you think maybe we should try to get jobs for those kids?

I think from a moral responsibility we've got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty, but you don't do that by making people in this country even poorer.

Ezra Klein Then what are the responsibilities that we have? Someone who is poor by US standards is quite well off by, say, Malaysian standards, so if the calculation goes so easily to the benefit of the person in the US, how do we think about that responsibility?

We have a nation-state structure. I agree on that. But philosophically, the question is how do you weight it? How do you think about what the foreign aid budget should be? How do you think about poverty abroad?

Bernie Sanders I do weigh it. As a United States senator in Vermont, my first obligation is to make certain kids in my state and kids all over this country have the ability to go to college, which is why I am supporting tuition-free public colleges and universities. I believe we should create millions of jobs rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure and ask the wealthiest people in this country to start paying their fair share of taxes. I believe we should raise the minimum wage to at least 15 bucks an hour so people in this county are not living in poverty. I think we end the disgrace of some 20 percent of our kids living in poverty in America. Now, how do you do that?

What you do is understand there's been a huge redistribution of wealth in the last 30 years from the middle class to the top tenth of 1 percent. The other thing that you understand globally is a horrendous imbalance in terms of wealth in the world. As I mentioned earlier, the top 1 percent will own more than the bottom 99 percent in a year or so. That's absurd. That takes you to programs like the IMF and so forth and so on.

But I think what we need to be doing as a global economy is making sure that people in poor countries have decent-paying jobs, have education, have health care, have nutrition for their people. That is a moral responsibility, but you don't do that, as some would suggest, by lowering the standard of American workers, which has already gone down very significantly.

Of what I can gather that he's complaining about is Republican-Big Business' policy of open borders in the sense that poor workers come in, get exploited with lousy work conditions, and businesses use their low paying wages to justify rat fucking the wages of other blue collar workers, is what I get from it. He's not saying close the borders, but he's saying opening the borders wide open is stupid.

Hell, if you read his full plan, I'm pretty sure it reads like a slightly more left wing version of Obama's current immigration policies.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:14:01 PM by PotatoesRock

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109490: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:13:45 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]There are others like that, yes. Here's a slightly better source. About 6 months old, but it'll do. In that poll, Sanders only had 9% of the non-white Democrat vote.

“Democratic caucus-goers in Iowa and Democratic primary voters in New Hampshire are really liberal and really white, and that’s the core of Sanders’s support,” Mr. Silver wrote on his website, Five Thirty Eight, yesterday.

Of what I can gather that he's complaining about is Republican-Big Business' policy of open borders in the sense that poor workers come in, get exploited with lousy work conditions, and businesses use their low paying wages to justify rat fucking the wages of other blue collar workers, is what I get from it. He's not saying close the borders, but he's saying opening the borders wide open is stupid.
No, he's in favor of closed borders (i.e. aggressive and stringent persecution of attempted border jumpers) and reduced quotas; he's on record as stating that several times. This is because his economic policy is pure nonsense and he gets most of his supporters via nativist rhetoric. It ties in nicely with his anti-globalization/free trade stance.

Those "poor wages" are largely a myth BTW. The average income for an illegal immigrant household in 2007 was $36,000 (equivalent to $41,500 now). Or, to put it another way, 72% of the average household income, for a population group that pays fewer taxes and has, on average, little education. Illegal immigrants here are far better off than they would be in their own countries, and they almost entirely gravitate to jobs that "normal" Americans won't work, so they're actually helping the economy.

Not even considering legal immigrants.

In short, he's outright making shit up ($3 hourly wages? lol) to justify his nativism.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:22:34 PM by Nihlus1

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#109491: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:18:59 PM

Depends. Iowa and New Hampshire results tend to get hyped and warp reality around them. Hillary could in the blink of an eye start losing support in general. Vox made a note that Iowa and NH basically tend to warp political reality as their results get hyped. Obama went from nobody to somebody because of Iowa and NH.

No, he's in favor of closed borders (i.e. aggressive and stringent persecution of attempted border jumpers) and reduced quotas
Odd. His website keeps insisting "Make immigration less grief inducing for those who get in".

Ball's in your court, Nihlus.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:22:06 PM by PotatoesRock

TheWanted Since: Oct, 2013
#109492: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:23:08 PM

Huh. Here is an interesting article I came across. Most of the time I lurk but I thought I'd just drop this. Apologies for long link text, posting from my phone and don't know how to shorten it.

http://theweek.com/articles/599577/how-obscure-adviser-pat-buchanan-predicted-wild-trump-campaign-1996

Basically it talks about where the populist support Trump has is coming from, quite a few of whom are often dismissed by ones on both sides. the left categorizing them as white racists saying "they terkin ur jerbs!" which is something I've seen in this very thread, and the right as ivory tower intellectual rich elites who keep telling the poor rubes to just keep believing in capitalism and these trade deals totally aren't just enriching themselves while claiming its for everybody.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:46:12 PM by TheWanted

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109493: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:27:57 PM

Honestly, speaking as someone from outside, it doesnt really look like anything.

He is talking moreabout regulating companies rather than immigration but this is a momentuous I would dare say impossible task. A random company can and will easily get illegal immigrants without the government knowing about it and an illega immigrant will come ad do this job happily because the company can pay less like that and because he immigrant really has n other option.

What Sanders is refering to more is about regulation of the companies and how legal immigrants are going to have an easier time coming in, by all the measures he is trying to increment. This is a benefit to the U.S as a whole, but it is a Brain drain to other nations

In either case: The kids Sanders does not see getting a job do not get a job because they are not qualified or willing to do them, so the solution there is educating and teaching them skills. Not trying to shoo or regulate companies.

Build your wall. Make your papers. You will not control the flow of immigrants at this point in either way. Use thermal cameras. Drones. Use the goddamn terminator, the immigrants will still appear, legally and illegally.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109494: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:29:05 PM

[up][up][up]Politicians use vague rhetoric with no concrete facts and distract from the actual issue. News at 11. He's made his stance on "unskilled" immigrants (i.e. most of them, and disproportionately the ones from Hispanic countries) quite clear when he's actually bothered to get specific:

“I frankly do not believe that we should be bringing in significant numbers of unskilled to workers to compete with [unemployed] kids,” Sanders said. “I want to see these kids get jobs.” “You bring a lot of unskilled workers into this country, what do you think happens to that 36 percent?”

"[I voted against the 2007 bill] because these immigrants would be competing against kids in this country who desperately need jobs.”

He clearly stated his policy and his reasoning. He believes immigration from the south should be quelled because he thinks it hurts the economy because them DAMN MEXICANS ARE TAKING OUR JERBS. This has been repeatedly proven to be false, but it's explicitly the logic he's working under.

It's textbook nativism, and it's the same logic that drives his anti-free trade stance.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:30:54 PM by Nihlus1

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#109495: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:30:39 PM

I will note, the Trade Deals (such as NAFTA, TPP) are under attack because there's been a decline in quality of life for workers since these have been enacted. General Qo L might be raised on the whole, but personal anecdotes hold strong. If people don't see their life meaningfully improve or at least stay at a good quality, they're going to start getting suspicious.

As much as free trade is good, if you don't do something to cushion and protect your populace's general life quality, they start sharpening pitchforks and look for good torch-material wood. (i.e. Political revolt)

[up][up][up]Politicians use vague rhetoric with no concrete facts and distract from the actual issue. News at 11. He's made his stance on "unskilled" immigrants (i.e. most of them, and disproportionately the ones from Hispanic countries) quite clear when he's actually bothered to get specific:
Please start linking and citing sources when you quote things, that's general policy in this thread.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:31:29 PM by PotatoesRock

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#109496: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:32:28 PM

[up][up] He is not saying "Mexicans are taking our jerbs"

He is saying "Companies are taking mexicans over our kids because they can pay them less, so I want to legalize all mexicans here that they are forced to be paid these minimum wages of mine, and we will be more meticulous about newcoming immigrants from now on"

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#109497: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:33:01 PM

Saying most of his support is built on nativism, regardless of what his actual feelings on immigration are (and they don't seem to be as black and white as you're making it out to be) is a pretty big stretch either way. At the very least if that were true it would have been mentioned here before now.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:33:55 PM by LSBK

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#109498: Jan 25th 2016 at 12:36:19 PM

As much as free trade is good, if you don't do something to cushion and protect your populace's general life quality, they start sharpening pitchforks and look for good torch-material wood. (i.e. Political revolt)
Free trade has improved the US economy and QOL. It would be fine if Sanders was just looking for a "cushion", but he's not. In that same Vox interview I posted, he said he wants to end regular trade with China ("I voted against [permanent normal trade relations] with China, that was the right vote"), and that "and if elected president I will radically transform trade policies" in favor of protectionism.

He's not trying to put on a cushion, he's just breaking the chair. Or something. I'm not good at metaphors.tongue

Those quotes are from the articles I posted. Specifically this one.

[up]Uh, his platform is anti-immigration and anti-free trade. These are the bases of his campaign.

[up][up]No he isn't, he outright said that he doesn't want to let a bunch of immigrants because they would compete with natives for jobs. Like, those were his exact words.

“I frankly do not believe that we should be bringing in significant numbers of unskilled to workers to compete with [unemployed] kids,” Sanders said. “I want to see these kids get jobs.”
"Unskilled workers" being a euphemism for "Mexicans and Central Americans", who make up the vast majority of the "unskilled" workers coming to the US.

edited 25th Jan '16 12:40:20 PM by Nihlus1


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