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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Yeah, it's sort of like how whenever a terrorist group takes hostages or whatever, they start demanding the release of all sorts of "political prisoners". It's part of the standard spiel to give themselves a veneer of legitimacy. Of course, they also want a few million dollars, just to cover expenses.
edited 5th Jan '16 11:45:44 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Their philosophy is that of the Sovereign Citizen movement, which holds that the Federal government is fundamentally illegitimate: that the only sovereign entity is is the individual him or herself. No state apparatus can compel an individual to do anything against his or her wishes.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
edited 5th Jan '16 12:06:24 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Murder rates are rising in American cities.
But it is not because of some Ferguson effect. Apparently a lot of new guns with high capacity magazines have gotten out on the streets,not sure how, and the market for drugs has expanded,causing increased gang warfare.
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I think the money portion was part of his example, not this particular instance.
Also, with the ranchers, one thing worth noting is that they're being put back in jail because they served less time than the Federal statute for the crime demanded, after being out for a year or two
. That's a significant difference, and I'll agree that it's a raw deal, but this was (unfortunately) the earliest it could be resolved.
And the statute in question was originally enacted under a Republican administration to penalize domestic terrorism, so yeah.
edited 5th Jan '16 12:30:44 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Wasn't sympathizing that far with them, but I think the assumption floating around is that they were already jailed and released, only to be told "Yeah, you weren't in for long enough". Though now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure if that's true, or if they might have held off of jail-time until they figured out what precisely their sentence would be. If it's the former, it's a raw deal (because it kinda skirts Double Jeopardy), while the latter is just due process taking a while to come due.
edited 5th Jan '16 2:31:42 PM by ironballs16
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"It's a little of both. They appear to have been sentenced incorrectly at first, with the sentence later overturned on appeal and reissued. I don't mean to imply that this is in any way not-sucky for the ranchers in question.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Lol, I am reminded of my brother's argument that the police have "a monopoly on force". Yeah, that'll go over well. What does that even mean? That only the police are allowed to use force... to arrest people?
But besides that, the idea that the state can't compel an individual to do anything against their wishes means that police would be useless. Who would police society then?
Here ya go.
http://www.indiabookofrecords.in/smallest-playable-violin/
That is precisely what it means. In most civilizations, the enforcers of law are granted monopoly of force, which means that only they are entrusted to use violence responsibly. The responsibility of the citizenry is to contact the police/knights/guardsmen so that they can bring in their weapons and resolve the situation. Different countries have different standards when it comes to forbidding ownership of deadly weapons but nearly all serve the same purpose: keeping force squarely in the domain of the law.
Many countries have special circumstances that permit citizenry to use violence - self-defense, for instance - but outside those circumstances, the legitimate use of violence remains solely in the domain of the law. If a police sniper shoots a bank robber through a window during a hostage situation, that's a legitimate use of force performed by legal authority. If YOU do it, it's vigilante justice and it's a crime.
edited 5th Jan '16 2:05:30 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Yep. Governments are, in fact, instituted largely for the purpose of consolidating the right to apply force in defense of the society. That's the whole point. That complaint is sort of like yelling at the Sun because it has the audacity to be hot.
edited 5th Jan '16 2:06:20 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Indeed. "Dag nab this fool gubmint that won't let me shoot those lousy n-words 'cuz they lookit me funny."
@Aszur
The ranchers that Fighteer mentioned were the ones convicted of Arson, not the Bundy Bunch, and it's due to the weirdness surrounding their jail sentence which even I sympathize with (again, if it was a matter of "they just got out, then were told 'yeah, you weren't in long enough' and put back inside", as opposed to the courts hammering out the details then assigning jail time).
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"

That is both sad and hilarious.
So let me get this straight. These farmers are holding up a government building to so the government can give up sovereignty over its land as well as release convicts who willingly turned themselves in?
edited 5th Jan '16 11:45:01 AM by Aquaconda