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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107726: Dec 29th 2015 at 7:53:12 PM

I'm sorry what argument have I made up? You and Fighteer claim that these police officers are murders who were let off by an uncaring system seemingly designed to keep the black man down. I claim its a tragedy where jumpy idiots were set up by a negligent (and probably unthinking) dispatcher and that trying to bring the "in the headlines" but only tangentially related open carry laws into the discussion was compromising the discussions integrity.

Should the police have acted differently? Probably and thats easy to say in a cozy chair behind a computer screen. Should police be punished when they screw up so badly an innocent child is killed? Sure why not that sounds fine. If a dispatcher does such a poor job that they create that situation should they be charged along with the responding officers? I think in certain extreme cases yes they should be.

The claim that the mother is just in it for the money is reprehensible but I wasn't discussing that because its self evident.

edited 29th Dec '15 7:53:58 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107727: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:01:50 PM

You say "Well from hindsight they should have put on ghillie suits and snuck up on the suspects location so as to observe him with binos because Police should be trained to assume their dispatchers are criminally negligent"

they didn't exactly wake up that morning thinking "I hope I get a chance to shoot a little black kid today."

Sure you may just be exagerating our arguments for effect, but your still deliberately trying to make our arguments appear like they're not so that you can tear them down.

Also I don't think either Fighter or I have denied that the guys were jumpy idiots, lots of jumpy idiots are also racist murderers, the two can easily go hand in hand, and either should be a dsualifying factor for being made a police officer.

edited 29th Dec '15 8:07:42 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107728: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:07:33 PM

"The Strawman Fallacy occurs when a debater constructs a more easily defeated version of his opponent's position to attack, rather than addressing his real arguments."

From our own page.

Which one of us is making strawmen? I don't believe I ever accused Fighteer of thinking that all police officers are murderous racists.

Whereas he presents my arguments as "I mean, screw procedure manuals and response training, police should just shoot whoever they feel might be a threat, amirite? That's your entire position."

That's an exact quote. So who's building Strawmen here?

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107729: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:08:42 PM

Both of you, Fighter deciding to strawman back doesn't make your straw manning justified.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107730: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:10:47 PM

Quote the exact moment I misrepresented anyone's argument. Please.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107731: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:12:04 PM

I just did... Twice... Do you not see the post with two quotes of you using quote marks to construct fake arguments to knock down?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107732: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:14:49 PM

I'm sick of this. I'm sure I'm going to be accused of abusing my power for banning Canid from OTC, but at least there's not a dead kid on the other end.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107733: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:18:39 PM

Hey seeing as it's been done off the back of the report I filled I think you can share some of that blame with me Fighter. Plus it's not like you guys don't check each other's moving anyway.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#107734: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:32:34 PM

People who are too dumb to realize that they're being presented not with a straw man but with the natural consequence of their position really frustrate me.

In general, I mean.

All that being said though, I'm not sure I like the precedent of a person being banned by the person they're arguing against. Temp ban maybe?

edited 29th Dec '15 8:36:30 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#107735: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:40:29 PM

Yeah, a ban for that seems... troubling. Things got a little heated, but Canid wasn't being any more abrasive or inflammatory than anyone else involved in the discussion.

I can't say that I find the position he was arguing entirely unreasonable, either.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#107736: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:42:44 PM

I can. And I still largely think a ban in this context isn't really warranted. Or rather, maybe it is, but Fighteer shouldn't be the one administering it, due to impartiality concerns.

But, eh, this is the General US Politics Thread not the Discuss Forum Policy thread, so moving on-

edited 29th Dec '15 8:46:19 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107737: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:43:41 PM

[up][up]It's indefensible. Police should be excused from the consequences of their gross negligence which led to the ambush and murder of an unarmed pre-teen because... why exactly? I still can't wrap my head around it. The only answer that fits the narrative is that he was black.

edited 29th Dec '15 8:44:01 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#107738: Dec 29th 2015 at 8:46:52 PM

I don't know that that's what he was arguing. Rather, it was a consequence of what he was arguing and did not understand that.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107742: Dec 29th 2015 at 9:25:24 PM

I'm not sure that either outcome of that principle works to our friend's favor.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#107743: Dec 29th 2015 at 9:30:24 PM

Police should be excused from the consequences of their gross negligence which led to the ambush and murder of an unarmed pre-teen because... why exactly?
He was specifically not saying that. Reread his first post on this page. He describes the police and the dispatcher as negligent (meaning that they carry responsibility for what happened — that they were wrong to act as they did, not that they acted appropriately based on what they knew of the situation) and specifically said that police should be punished when they screw up as badly as they did.

He was saying that the negligence in question was that the 911 call as relayed to the responding officer was garbled so badly ("active shooter in the neighborhood", not "kid is being a nuisance"), not that the officer in question was a blatant racist looking for an excuse to murder a brown person.

Basically, you were saying that it's a race issue and he was saying that it was a general bad policing issue.

The thing of it is, it's really hard to prove that any given incident is specifically race-related. Would things have gone down differently if the call had been for a white kid with a fake gun? Maybe, maybe not. You can't second guess that sort of thing. You may may think it's obvious that the entire incident would have ended differently had the victim not been a minority, but it's impossible to really know that. If you want to talk about systemic problems, then you have to look at trends, not specific incidents.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107744: Dec 29th 2015 at 9:39:38 PM

It's both bad policing and racism. This isn't hard. Those cops would not have instantly shot a white kid.

edited 29th Dec '15 9:39:56 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#107745: Dec 29th 2015 at 9:46:13 PM

Did you even read the last paragraph of my post? Obviously you think that's self-evident, but not everyone agrees, and there's no point in trying to make that point with specific incidents anyway. If you try to point at one shooting and say "see? racism!" then all that happens is people overanalyze the hell out of that event to argue over whether it's actually racial or not. If you want to talk about a systemic issue like racism, then you have to show trends (eg, that minority suspects are more likely to be shot by police even when controlling for other variables like location, income, etc), not specific cases.

It's like climate change. It's nigh impossible to prove that any given storm is caused by climate change, but you can point to large data sets showing that storms are getting more severe and more frequent as evidence that climate change is happening. Similarly, you can argue endlessly over any given incident, and even if you do somehow manage to prove that one specific incident is racially motivated, then all anyone has to say is "well, but that's just one incident, it doesn't prove that there's a wider problem" and you're back to square one.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#107746: Dec 29th 2015 at 9:55:29 PM

Counter point.

Not Identical to the case of course but similar in some respects.

I'm baaaaaaack
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107747: Dec 29th 2015 at 9:59:18 PM

The officer in that shooting gave the suspect the opportunity to stand down, at least. And had the decency to feel bad about the outcome.

edited 29th Dec '15 9:59:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#107748: Dec 29th 2015 at 10:14:57 PM

Less than 5 seconds, yes. And shot him almost the instant he moved his arm slightly.

I'm baaaaaaack
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#107750: Dec 29th 2015 at 10:49:45 PM

Aaand to move it away from this.

The Department of Justice to investigate Blue Bell Creameries over whether management knew there were unsanitary conditions and ignored them until a listeria outbreak earlier this year which killed three.

edited 29th Dec '15 10:49:55 PM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."

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