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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107701: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:31:22 PM

[up][up]Open carry allows you to have a weapon visible in public.

It does not allow you to point that weapon at people unprovoked.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107702: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:37:07 PM

Yeah weirdly Rice probably would have gotten justice if he'd been carrying an actual gun, as then it would have been a 2nd amendment issue, instead of a "cop guns down unarmed black kid" issue.

[up] The "gun" was never pointed at the police from my understanding. It was claimed that it had been pointed at people, but that's not the same.

edited 29th Dec '15 5:37:48 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107703: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:38:24 PM

I doubt that as he would have been actually endangering people with that gun. This was a systemic failure from one end to the other.

[up]If you point a gun at people the police will be inclined to shoot you. So that you can't shoot anyone else.

I understand that this was a horrible tragedy and relates to the tendency of the police to over-rely on deadly force but please do not falsely bring the gun debate into it. Thats just dishonest.

edited 29th Dec '15 5:41:03 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107704: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:41:19 PM

He wasn't pointing the "gun" at anyone when the police arrived from my understanding, thus he posed no risk to anyone.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#107705: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:42:51 PM

There's no video evidence of Rice pointing his gun at unarmed people, just posing with it while other people may be in the area (there's a mysterious greyed-out blob in the 'ten minutes beforehand' footage that is probably a person). More to the point, he isn't pointing the toy at anyone when the police roll up - it's tucked into his belt, which is why he starts to reach for it when they (presumably) tell him to drop it. That would be acceptable under open-carry, and would therefore at least warrant some caution on behalf of the officers before they opened fire.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107706: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:45:55 PM

It's true they did not see him point it at anyone.

They were told by the dispatcher that he was pointing it at people. Hence why this is a "dispatcher misinformed a twitchy cop" issue not a gun debate issue.

[down]Because they thought this was their chance to be a hero? Because they didn't know who was in the area? Because that's their departments SOP? Because the spirit of John Wayne manifested as a force ghost in front of them and told them to?

I wasn't at the trial where that question was presumably brought up so I do not know for sure.

edited 29th Dec '15 5:56:53 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#107707: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:50:13 PM

[up] Why did they pull up so close to him though? If they thought he was armed and dangerous, they should have stayed a bit farther back.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#107708: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:53:04 PM

[up]

That's what I wonder too - they literally pulled up alongside him, on the grass in the park. That doesn't seem like SOP to me.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107709: Dec 29th 2015 at 5:53:25 PM

Dispatch could tell them that a guy said there was a dragon on the loose, their still meant to act on and confirm shit they see themselves, not what they're told despite it being directly contradictory to what's in front of them.

And it's relevant to guns so far as Rice might well have had a better chance at justice if he'd been an armed adult rather then an unarmed kid.

Plus there's the inherent hypocrisy of "people should be able to openly carrying firearms and not have to register them" being combined with "well that black kid looked like he might have a gun so the cops were justified in shooting him".

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107710: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:00:13 PM

There is a world of difference between "has a gun" and "is pointing a gun at people."

The police were told the latter. Does that excuse their actions? Not entirely no. But they didn't exactly wake up that morning thinking "I hope I get a chance to shoot a little black kid today."

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107711: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:04:02 PM

They also observed themselves the former, I'm told plenty of things, when I observe with my own eyes that they aren't true I don't tend act on the false information.

they didn't exactly wake up that morning thinking "I hope I get a chance to shoot a little black kid today."

Nobody has claimed that, but they do seem to have in the moment gone "O god an armed black person! Shoot it! Shoot it quick before it gets us!".

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107712: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:08:13 PM

Procedure in cases like that, as I understand it, is to take cover and determine the individual's threat level, not drive up to him and murder him. The killing broke every rule in the book. It should have been treated as premeditated murder.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107713: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:15:04 PM

Well maybe we should create molecular copies of you and use them to police the streets. Surely all mistakes will be wiped away overnight.

I am not a police officer. But I can safely assume that certain calls from a dispatch would put me on edge in a way that other calls would not. If I were told that an armed individual is pointing his weapon at bystanders (which is exactly what the responding officers were told by the dispatch who negligently withheld information) then I assume that I would want to resolve the situation quickly and decisively before the suspect decides to pull the trigger. And in the wake of the Colorado Planned Parenthood shooting I could understand where the "Put a potential shooter down fast and hard" mindset could come from.

Now if the dispatcher had radioed with "Black adolescent male is disturbing a public park by pointing a toy gun at bystanders" (which is what the caller who called 911 told the dispatcher). Then I would probably park, saunter over like the douchebag cop that I would inevitably be and tell him to knock it off.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107714: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:23:51 PM

[up] Your feelings are irrelevant. The reason why police agencies establish detailed procedures and put their officers through rigorous situational response training is exactly so that an officer's feelings don't get in the way of performing their duty. When they do, they get disciplined for it.

If you think it's okay for police to execute black kids on the spot for the crime of holding a weapon, then maybe you'd have been happier back in the 1800s. For the rest of us, who like living in a civilized society, police must be held accountable for failing to follow procedures, especially when it involves a completely unnecessary death.

When they are not, it sends the message that police have carte blanche to kill whoever they like, as long as the victims have no systemic privilege.

edited 29th Dec '15 6:26:35 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107715: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:24:13 PM

I assume that I would want to resolve the situation quickly and decisively before the suspect decides to pull the trigger.

Even if that involved breaking procedure, putting yourself much closer to the suspect then makes any sense, and opening fire on someone who posed no active threat to anyone?

Because that's what was done in this case, I would suggest that such attitudes are something that should be gotten out of cops, not grown in them.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107716: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:29:50 PM

Anyway, let's make up our minds here. Are police allowed to execute civilians who are holding weapons? If so, what does that say about the Second Amendment, and why are gun rights advocates so blasé about it? Oh, that's right, because the victim was a person of color. That's the only real difference, folks.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107717: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:30:30 PM

[up][up][up]Just as your feelings are irrelevant and this was most likely manslaughter and to claim it was a premeditated murder is ridiculous. As for their "rigorous situational training." I'm sure the power point presentation that half the officers slept through was marvelously detailed.

Did the officers respond in the best manner? No they did not. Are they solely to blame.

[up][up]The officers were informed that he had pointed a weapon at bystanders. That makes him an active threat. And no matter how many times you say "Well from hindsight they should have put on ghillie suits and snuck up on the suspects location so as to observe him with binos because Police should be trained to assume their dispatchers are criminally negligent" that doesn't change the fact that this was a systemic failure catalyzed by a particularly terrible dispatcher.

edited 29th Dec '15 6:30:47 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107718: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:35:08 PM

[up] It was a terrible dispatcher and a trigger-happy police officer who should have been psych-eval'ed out years ago. The result of which, let me remind you, was the death of an innocent child. We are supposed to care about that, but instead you are too busy rationalizing it as "shit happens".

No, my friend, shit like this does not happen in a civilized society. It happens in the United States, where blacks are systematically executed, framed, and imprisoned and police are allowed to get away with it because we are terrified that they'll stop protecting us from all those evil black people.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#107719: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:37:00 PM

The dispatcher was not there. The officers were. What he told them prior to arriving is irrelevant if it's clear that's not what's going on.

edit: Should open carriers be shot on sight? If the answer is no then why should this kid die?

edited 29th Dec '15 6:38:39 PM by Kostya

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107720: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:39:18 PM

[up][up]And implying I'm a racist who hates children is a delightful way to inspire me to try to help fix the problem.

edited 29th Dec '15 6:42:30 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107721: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:43:27 PM

[up]I don't really care at this point what your motivation is. You are so busy pretending the problem doesn't exist that you have become part of it.

The Tamir Rice murder is an open and shut case of police abuse of power, prosecutorial misconduct, and systemic racism.

edited 29th Dec '15 6:44:27 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107722: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:45:37 PM

So fuck my analysis of the problem you know whats best?

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107723: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:55:29 PM

Well, I'd be happy if you'd wake up and smell the irrationality of your position, but that is apparently too much. It's not like I'm going to convince you with mere facts. I mean, screw procedure manuals and response training, police should just shoot whoever they feel might be a threat, amirite? That's your entire position.

edited 29th Dec '15 6:57:36 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107724: Dec 29th 2015 at 6:58:33 PM

Can I roast a hot dog on that straw man you are burning?

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107725: Dec 29th 2015 at 7:30:28 PM

Seeing as you've been arguing against entirely fabricated argument that you've made up you're hardly one to talk about straw. Anyway I'm out, debating someone who's just going to invent strawmen is not a good use of my time.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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