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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#107652: Dec 29th 2015 at 10:58:36 AM

Hold on a sec, we've got someone arguing that a civilian pulling out a gun in the middle of a riot to defend themselves would be helpful? Seriously?

I mean, I guess if you want to gun down anyone who looks swarthy and upset and then get yourself mowed down by a police counterterrorism unit, it's a decent option, but there have to be easier, more reliable, and more neighbourly ways to commit suicide. Speaking of, have we talked about the impact of readily-accessible firearms on accident and suicide rates? Interpersonal violence is responsible for a relatively small fraction of gun injuries and deaths - statistically, the gun you buy is far more likely to hurt you than anyone else.

What's precedent ever done for us?
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#107653: Dec 29th 2015 at 11:02:27 AM

Yeah that sounds like the fastest possible way to turn a riot into a proper uprising and to get your ass gunned down immediately by the National Guard.

Then of course there's terrorist groups like the Oath Keepers who wander around with guns with then intention of starting riots so they can shoot minorities and police in equal measure.

edited 29th Dec '15 11:03:34 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#107654: Dec 29th 2015 at 11:34:13 AM

I think the Gun + Riot situation was like, defending one's home during a riot, not like, you're in a public area and there's violence going on and you draw a weapon.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107655: Dec 29th 2015 at 11:38:59 AM

The idea was being proposed for when the police 'inevitably' pull out and leave everyone to face the riot on their own.

edited 29th Dec '15 11:42:39 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#107656: Dec 29th 2015 at 11:45:03 AM

In which case you go to your home and business you do not roll around trying to wax rioters.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107657: Dec 29th 2015 at 11:54:15 AM

I think the idea was that you have the gun for defending your home and business.

Now to me this all seems rather hypothetical, how often do you guys have massive riots on such a scale that the police just abandon areas and people are left to fend for themselves? Because it just feels like something out a survivalist's wet dream more then reality.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#107658: Dec 29th 2015 at 11:55:45 AM

Because it just feels like something out a survivalist's wet dream more then reality.

Frankly that's how most of these pro gun for self defense arguments come across as. Just a bunch of people wanting to play cowboy.

Oh really when?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#107659: Dec 29th 2015 at 11:57:15 AM

[up][up]That is kinda what happened in Ferguson and Baltimore, no police to prevent local stores and houses from being looted and vandalized because they were more focused with the protests.

edited 29th Dec '15 11:57:42 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#107660: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:01:00 PM

One thing I love about then gun arguement is when gun nuts salivate over the fact that the US army is the most advanced, powerful and technologically sophisticated one in the world while, at the same time, they are convinced that in a case the government goes tyrannical, a couple of rednecks with A Ks will be able to stop said army from taking away their freedom. [lol]

edited 29th Dec '15 12:01:18 PM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107661: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:04:45 PM

[up][up] So the people who should be buying guns for self defence are black people? Bet that will go down well with the redneck crowd. What's the NRA like on racial stuff anyway?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#107662: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:07:16 PM

Historically guns are only for white people. California's almost draconian gun control laws started when Reagan got wind of black Americans carrying weapons to stop themselves from getting lynched.

Oh really when?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#107664: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:24:11 PM

[up][up] Didn't they come across after the Black Panthers marched into the statehouse with said guns, I would hardly call that defense against lynching, but then if I had my way nobody who wasn't a cop or some other kind of security person would be allowed to cary guns into government buildings. Especially not the representatives themselves, remember Charles Sumner.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#107665: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:36:15 PM

In Baltimore's case the police were being specifically petulant in a manner probably designed to mirror the tactics used by the LAPD in the Rodney King trials. Pwiegle's post was enlightening in that regard, as I didn't know the riots were due to the LAPD wussing out on doing their jobs because a prosecutor had the audacity to go after the police, so the Baltimore police weren't being uniquely derelict in their duty, they hoped to emulate the same situation, and then when anarchy descended on the abandoned neighborhoods, they would be welcomed as heroes, or something.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#107666: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:42:04 PM

Regarding Pwiegle and the Riots - his point was that, during the riots sparked by the Rodney King trial, the businesses and homes of those that owned guns were left unharmed by those doing the rioting/looting, as even in California some level of Castle Doctrine would be seen as acceptable.

That said, Pwiegle, while I respect your right to own a gun, I think my desire to ensure that those that own guns know what the fuck they're doing is a reasonable one. As it stands, I live in NY, and even with as stringent as our laws are, I could go into any gun shop, apply, and get a gun while having never fired or handled one in my life. It's what leads to cases like the guy in Pittsburgh who (allegedly) fired a shot at his neighbor's house because he (again, allegedly) didn't know how to unload his gun to clean it.

And yes, part of "know what the fuck they're doing" would include safe storage of said gun, so we can avoid situations like that 11-year-old killing his 8-year-old neighbor with an unsecured shotgun left in a closet because she wouldn't let him see her new puppy.

edited 29th Dec '15 12:45:38 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#107667: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:42:53 PM

[up][up] My understanding was they just didn't give a shit about those areas, especially when they needed to protect the homes of "important" celebrities.

edited 29th Dec '15 12:43:02 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#107668: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:45:58 PM

What's more, it's a bait and switch, since Castle Doctrine has 0 to say about Open Carry laws.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#107669: Dec 29th 2015 at 2:06:42 PM

[up][up][up]While I completely agree that people who choose to own a gun should know how to handle and store it safely, at this point such things are entirely on a voluntary basis. There are mandatory safety education courses for getting a hunting license, but none for just owning a gun. You're not even required to read the instruction manual that comes with it.

Probably because trying to implement some sort of official training course nationwide would be an administrative nightmare that nobody wants to take on, never mind the resistance it would get from States' Rights groups and the like. As with belling the cat, it's a lot easier to suggest a plan than to actually carry it out.

edited 29th Dec '15 2:07:09 PM by pwiegle

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Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#107670: Dec 29th 2015 at 2:12:10 PM

Maybe implement the program on a state or municipal level than? That's how most jurisdictions deal with driving/business/hunting/etc permits. Why should guns be different?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#107671: Dec 29th 2015 at 2:14:18 PM

Some already do. (New Jersey, for example.) But the states are notorious for stonewalling anything that the federal government tries to force on them. Despite it being the "United States," said states still enjoy and exercise a certain degree of autonomy.

In short: Politics, man. Politics...

EDIT: Actually, I was mistaken. To get a New Jersey Firearms ID Card (which you need to purchase a gun in that state), you have to be fingerprinted, background checked, mental health evaluated, and give references. But you don't actually have to know a thing about gun safety.

edited 29th Dec '15 2:45:46 PM by pwiegle

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ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#107672: Dec 29th 2015 at 2:51:35 PM

[up]

Which is mostly-agreeable, but still ass-backwards regarding ensuring people don't literally shoot themselves in the foot. Seriously, I'd love to see reasonable objections to such mandated training for firearm ownership, but other forums I've brought it up on tend to fall back on "shall not be infringed!!!!1!!111!!" as pretty much the entirety of their argument.

edited 29th Dec '15 3:04:37 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#107673: Dec 29th 2015 at 3:08:54 PM

From several pages back:

It doesn't require a significant amount of training it just requires the ability to not be an asshat. Something you will not acquire at a 3 hour gun safety class.

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tryrar Since: Sep, 2010
#107674: Dec 29th 2015 at 3:11:36 PM

You vastly underestimate the stupidity of the public when it comes to operating simple devices tongue

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#107675: Dec 29th 2015 at 3:16:49 PM

Don't we all? As Einstein said, "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits."

In Shooting Industry magazine, a publication distributed to FFL holders, there used to be a regular column entitled: "I Answer Dumb Questions." Now, I've heard a LOT of 'em during my time working the counter at the gun shop, but some of the ones in there scared the hell out me...

edited 29th Dec '15 3:17:47 PM by pwiegle

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