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TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#107201: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:35:15 AM

It does make me wonder why these people never realized they didn't develop autism despite being vaccinated.

It's probably fairly simple (but no less wrong or stupid) in the end: there's a chance that Vaccines cause autism. Not in every case, but in some unknown percentage. And of course they're not going to let that risk happen to their children, the same way they wouldn't play a game of Russian Roulette with them, regardless of 5 of 6 chambers being empty.

For bonus points, you can add into the mix the fact that most of these diseases are, to them, distant theoretical dangers because these parents have never dealt with them, whereas they have seen the "explosion in autism", which, unknown to them, has a lot to do with the fact that the definition of autism has been changed from only being the very most severe cases to anything along the autism spectrum, much of which would have gone ignored in the old days.

After that comes paranoid distrust of industry and government due to their general sociopathy, the cultural factors that encourage an unconscious internalized distrust of science and intelligence in general, (see the prevalence of anti-intellectual tropes like Wicked Cultured, Brains Evil, Brawn Good, Morally Ambiguous Doctorate, Science Is Bad, Science Is Wrong, Ludd Was Right, Straw Vulcan, etc. vs the celebration of Dumb Is Good, Slobs vs. Snobs, Ignorance Is Bliss and so on) the BS fiction they read and see on a daily basis where it's always one man who's right for standing up to the establishment and the whole world with Know-Nothing Know-It-All "experts", and of course they think they're right when the rest of the world condemns them.

After all, the rest of the world is made up of greedy corporations, selfish, corrupt politicians, and the sheeple who buy into their shit. But not them! They're the one person, or one of a small group, who is going to sand up for what's right, because no one, afterall, can care about their children as much as they do, and because of that love, they know what's best! What expert can tell them better than that?!

Everyone's the hero of their own story, afterall, and they've spent their whole life consuming stories where one person stands up the whole institution that is just wrong. Why couldn't they play that role too?

edited 18th Dec '15 10:44:30 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#107202: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:37:49 AM

I wonder if the DNC wants to prevent Sanders from getting the nomination because he can't be controlled. Much like how the RNC is afraid of Trump. Except Trump knows how to manipulate the media and get attention, so if the RNC pulls something like that, Trump will make it a huge deal and have a lot of support. Sanders can't quite do that.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#107203: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:42:10 AM

Maybe it's reverse psychology to get people to pay attention to him again. He's been fading a bit thanks to his one trick pony status post-Paris.

More likely, post-Paris, they smell blood in the water and want him done.

edited 18th Dec '15 10:42:43 AM by FFShinra

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#107204: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:44:06 AM

You can, its just that it'll be going in circles.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Arguing with crazy will make you crazy.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#107205: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:54:51 AM

Trouble with that though is that if you don't try to understand "crazy" and present a compelling counter-narrative, crazy takes over.

I mean it's not as if every single anti-vaxxer has a schizophrenic break with reality. They're guilty of things like magical thinking, being drawn in by a toxic culture, (which is basically succumbing to a more generalized and amorphous version of peer pressure) and trusting in the wrong things while disbelieving things they should believe in, but by and large they're probably not all candidates for a straight jacket and padded walls.

Flat out refusing to engage with crazy does wonders for your own personal stress levels, but it doesn't tend to solve real world problems, and it leaves crazy free to have its way and infect others, which crazy inevitably does. Then your only choices become either hoping that crazy causes such a catastrophe that it shocks everyone back to sanity and that the damage it has caused is fixable, or sitting back and being a hermit as crazy becomes the mainstream, just to save your own personal peace of mind.

edited 18th Dec '15 10:56:31 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#107206: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:58:24 AM

Yes, we are using crazy as a metaphor here. As someone who lives with a paranoid schizophrenic, I find genuinely schizophrenic worldviews to be far more reasonable and productive to argue with than tightly-held beliefs.

It's so much easier to convince my BFF that the world is not suddenly populated by bug-people due to a night terror following her into the waking world, than it is to convince someone that vaccines do not cause autism.

edited 18th Dec '15 11:00:07 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107207: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:07:11 AM

[up] Or, more generally, that people are not "entitled to their own beliefs" about matters of fact, which is at the core of many kinds of stupid above and beyond mere anti-vaxxer nonsense.

edited 18th Dec '15 11:08:17 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#107208: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:10:06 AM

I found this interesting comment on a discussion about the Sanders thing:

Well, I'm just going to throw it out there anecdotally, but I'm very libertarian (socially and economically), and I'd consider voting for Sanders in the end game. I voted Paul last time in the primaries, and I think I'd rather have somebody who shares Ron Paul's genuine concern for the country's people rather than it's corporations or bureaucrats over having somebody who lines up with my preference for economic rights perfectly.

Not sure what to say about that. Could libertarians be swayed away from the politicians who are libertarian but don't give a shit about the people?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107209: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:11:05 AM

Some of them, yes. But genuine Libertarians, as opposed to Objectivist pseudo-libertarians, are pretty trivial as a voting bloc. I would expect them not to vote at all if there isn't a candidate available who respects their views.

Edit: I'm reminded of David Brin's famous lecture about how intellectually honest Libertarian thought should align with Democratic ideology.

edited 18th Dec '15 11:15:59 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#107210: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:11:07 AM

Alas, the downsides of free speech give them such entitlement, even when it's wrong....

Of course, no one ever tells them it goes both ways, but whatever....

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#107211: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:26:22 AM

Yes, we are using crazy as a metaphor here. As someone who lives with a paranoid schizophrenic, I find genuinely schizophrenic worldviews to be far more reasonable and productive to argue with than tightly-held beliefs.

It's so much easier to convince my BFF that the world is not suddenly populated by bug-people due to a night terror following her into the waking world, than it is to convince someone that vaccines do not cause autism.

First off, I want to say that I apologize if in referring to schizophrenia I made an unfortunate choice of words or it was upsetting or minimizing, that wasn't my intention and I sincerely hope no harm was done.

Second, I've just gotten tired of the only strategy for dealing with wrong beliefs being to either belittle the people making them or sit back and take the high ground by refusing to engage with them. I just feel like a lot of people have made a habit of ignoring flat out, factually wrong beliefs and refusing to be drawn into sparring matches over these beliefs and the result has been leaving most of the world to be dominated by the people with the beliefs that are simply wrong.

If trying to stomp on the crazies causes them to double down and ignoring them or only arguing half-heartedly makes them grow in popularity, as I think we've seen in the past, then it's probably time to try something else, because ignoring crazy hasn't worked in the past, and what does it make us if we keep doing it and hoping for the best?

edited 18th Dec '15 11:27:03 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#107212: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:39:16 AM

Yeah, I saw that headline. Makes me wonder. The DNC is not exactly handling itself with integrity in this nominating process.
It isn't. The DNC chair, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, currently running the DNC is comically biased towards Hillary, and has been also scheduling the debates specifically so no one can hear Sanders or O'Malley and thus second guess Schultz's silent corenation of Hillary.

(This is bashing on the DNC, not Hillary here)

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#107213: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:59:39 AM

Bernie is now fighting back, if you check the headlines on Google News. Haven't clicked the articles yet.

He's threatening legal action.

edited 18th Dec '15 11:59:55 AM by BonsaiForest

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#107214: Dec 18th 2015 at 12:02:53 PM

Well, at least he's making headlines again.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#107215: Dec 18th 2015 at 12:15:42 PM

He better be careful not to give ammo as a leftist Trump. Not that it's true, but I can easily see spin being made that his threats to sue are similar to Trump's threats to leave.

When is the next DNC chair election BTW? DWS is a madwoman.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#107216: Dec 18th 2015 at 12:21:57 PM

Delaware law decriminalizing marijuana use went into effect today

Delaware became the 19th state to decriminalize marijuana on Friday by removing the threat of jail for possession.

Following legislation adopted earlier this year, adult possession of a small amount of marijuana will now become a civil violation punishable by a fine.

"Delaware's marijuana policy is about to become a lot more reasonable," Karen O'Keefe, director of state policies for the Marijuana Policy Project, said in a statement. "Most people agree adults should not face jail time or the life-altering consequences of a criminal record just for possessing a substance that is safer than alcohol. Taxpayers certainly don't want to foot the bill for it, and fortunately they will not have to any longer."

Under current Delaware law, possession of up to one ounce of marijuana is a misdemeanor with a maximum punishment of a $575 fine and three months in jail.

HB 39 — which went into effect Friday after approval by the Delaware state legislature on June 18 — allows for the possession or private use of one ounce or less of marijuana without criminal penalties or creation of a criminal record for adults 21 years of age and older. Now, possession simply is a criminal violation punishable by a $100 fine. Those between the ages of 18 and 20 will face the same $100 civil fine for their first offense, and then an unclassified misdemeanor for subsequent offenses which can be expunged from their records when they reach age 21.

Possession of marijuana by minors, as well as public consumption by people of any age will remain misdemeanors.

An assignment in a class on world religions about Islam draws a backlash and threats that causes the school to close

A high school world geography teacher in Augusta County, Virginia, gave her students what seemed like a standard assignment: a worksheet on Islam as part of a curriculum on world religions.

The backlash was so fierce that schools in the county, which is just west of Charlottesville, are closed today after a barrage of threatening phone calls and emails from people angry about the homework assignment.

The worksheet asked students to try to copy the shahada — the statement that "there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah," the pillar of Muslim faith — in order to understand the complexity of Arabic calligraphy.

The ensuing fury is so over the top it almost seems like satire. Parents argued that the teacher, Cheryl La Porte, was trying to convert students to Islam. One parent said she "gave up the Lord's time and gave to Mohammed." The local newspaper noted, ominously, that "students were also reportedly shown copies of the Quran."

Then, after parents objected, the threats to the school district started rolling in. The whole episode is a perfect summary of growing Islamophobia within the US and the lack of understanding that drives it — a problem that the world geography curriculum was trying to correct.

...

Parents in Staunton, Virginia, thought otherwise, the News Leader reported. One complained that a teacher would be fired if students had to copy out a passage from the Bible. The district superintendent was reduced to defending the notion of studying world religions at all:

Neither these lessons, nor any other lesson in the world geography course, are an attempt at indoctrination to Islam or any other religion, or a request for students to renounce their own faith or profess any belief. Each of the lessons attempts objectively to present world religions in a way that is interesting and interactive for students.

In the end, though, the district said in a statement that students in the future would copy Arabic calligraphy that didn't have religious relevance. (Copying calligraphy might not really be the most enlightening way to learn about another culture or religion, but that's a separate issue.)

Then it got worse. The district "began receiving voluminous phone calls and electronic mail locally and from outside the area," a statement posted Thursday on its website reads. The sheriff and school superintendent decided to cancel school Friday as a precaution.

The death rate from guns and cars is now even. For reference, keep in mind that about 90% of households own at least one car while about 1/3 own a gun, and that really says a lot of bad things about the rate of gun deaths, and a lot of good things about the safety measures we've taken to reduce car deaths. (While we've simultaneously refused to do so with guns.)

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#107217: Dec 18th 2015 at 12:55:12 PM

[up]Not just the school closed down. The entire school district!

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#107218: Dec 18th 2015 at 12:58:58 PM

[up][up]I always say, in the States you could turn your car into a weapon and use that excuse drive it without license.

edited 18th Dec '15 12:59:42 PM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#107219: Dec 18th 2015 at 1:52:28 PM

We won't be having a shutdown this year. You know were in a sorry state when this is considered remarkable.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#107220: Dec 18th 2015 at 2:08:45 PM

Sorrier still, even this isn't remarkable since this is what...the third or fourth time we've gone through this now?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#107222: Dec 18th 2015 at 2:43:52 PM

Even 13 percent of your voters wanting to assault a fictional city is itself not exactly something to be proud of.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107223: Dec 18th 2015 at 2:55:30 PM

Maybe they realy didn't like the film? I'm not even kidding, people who realise that such a thing is a trick question may well troll for shits and giggels, then you've got people who know its not a real county but aren't sure so go with the safe answer, then there's people who simply go "well the name sounds Arab, so we should blow it up".

Honestly though, you could probably use a few counties official names and get people to say they should be bombed.

edited 18th Dec '15 2:56:00 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#107224: Dec 18th 2015 at 3:33:51 PM

That whole Sanders thing is weird and does not reflect well on DWS and by extension, Clinton.

That does explain a lot of why the Democratic debates have had such odd scheduling. And not that I think there should be as many candidates as the Republicans have, but I have thought it strange that more people didn't run (because like you'd expect some younger people who want to be the VP candidate at least)

edited 18th Dec '15 3:34:07 PM by Hodor2

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#107225: Dec 18th 2015 at 3:51:24 PM

@Fighteer: You misread that statistics in that article. The 13% is how many overall Republicans are opposed to bombing Agrabah.

Support for bombing Agrabah among Democrats is at 19%.

"Arabian nights/like Arabian days/more often than not/are hotter than hot/in a lot of good waaaaayyyys..."

edited 18th Dec '15 3:55:10 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

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