TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#107151: Dec 17th 2015 at 7:48:02 PM

The problem with consensus is unless you're either full on genocidal, invade other countries or just a pack of upstart warlords, Someone will try to cover your ass no matter what you do to your citizens.

I'm baaaaaaack
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#107152: Dec 18th 2015 at 4:46:58 AM

[up]The situation in Syria is an example, Russia did everything it could to prevent the US from ding the same thing it did in Libya.

Same thing with China backing Myanmar and blocking UN resolutions against its abusive government.

Cooperation only works when the interest of doing so aren't against each other's.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#107153: Dec 18th 2015 at 4:56:36 AM

What about just NATO-aligned nations that we seek consensus from?

Leviticus 19:34
Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#107154: Dec 18th 2015 at 6:00:37 AM

It doesn't help that the UN is a toothless organization. Making all the major players of the cold war (which is long over) permanent seats on the security council and giving them vetos that can't be overridden by a supermajority was a terrible idea.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#107155: Dec 18th 2015 at 6:24:38 AM

It wasn't, if you conceive of the UN's mission as preventing World War III instead of upholding human rights standards. For the former, the UN's done a howlingly good job, as the number of primarily interstate conflicts since the war has shot through the floor.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#107156: Dec 18th 2015 at 6:42:02 AM

I think you are giving the UN credit for the achievement of atomic weapons.tongue

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107157: Dec 18th 2015 at 6:42:05 AM

Yeah making sure all of NATO thinks something is a good idea is a pretty good start, but there is still more then just that and the UN out there, regional organisations and important neutral countries exist, the Indians and Brazilians are being key examples.

Also even when someone blocks you being willing to let them in after can help. The Russians worked a lot against us in Bosnia and Kosovo, but they were still involved in the rebuilding after the NATO interventions (though we certainly didn't want them involved in Kosovo it was good that they were).

[up] Bit of column A bit of column B, the veto was more then anything about keeping everyone important in the UN, it gave nations a reason to stay even if they were outnumbered by enemies, the League of Nations had massive problems with people just leaving.

Also I believe there is some way to get around a veto, I think it was used for Suez by the Russians and Americans to get around the French and British.

Edit: Yeah the General Assembly can override the Security Council if it's deadlocked. Also nations party to a conflict are meant to abstain for votes on it at the Security Council.

edited 18th Dec '15 6:55:01 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#107158: Dec 18th 2015 at 7:35:46 AM

Peggy Noonan in the Wallstreet Journal today, in part:

...The Republicans are out there on every show and get cuffed about. They expose themselves to the scrum every day and take all comers. Mrs. Clinton considering interview requests is like a queen pointing at necklaces arrayed on a jeweler’s pillow: “I’ll take that one, not that one. I’ll think about that one.”

The Republicans are finally, fitfully fighting out real issues—ISIS, privacy. Mrs. Clinton is forced to fight no one, makes pronouncements and glides on.

The Republicans draw censure with their big, bodacious brawl. The Democrats should draw it for not struggling, grappling. The Republican Party was told to make Jeb king. No, they thundered. When the Democratic Party was asked to do a coronation, they pulled on their forelocks, bowed and said, “Yes, sire, may I do anything else?”

This is not like the Democratic Party! It was once a big brass band marching through the streets—loud, dissonant, there. “I’m not a member of any organized party,” Will Rogers famously said. “I’m a Democrat.” For generations Democrats repeated that line as a brag. They knew disorganized meant vital, creative, spontaneous, passionate—alive.

Now that party acts like this tidy, lifeless, fightless thing, a big, gray, dead-hearted, soul-killing blob. “I have the demographics,” it blobbily bellows, “I have the millennials.” Maybe it doesn’t have as much as it thinks. It is no honor to the Democratic Party that it is not fighting things through with a stage full of contenders this epochal year.

The Republicans are all chaos and incoherence, it’s true. But at least they’re alive. At least they’re fighting as if it matters.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:06:28 AM by Bense

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#107159: Dec 18th 2015 at 7:45:48 AM

This is a bit hard to read. Could you use the [[quoteblock]]your quote here[[/quoteblock]] markup? Done.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:22:15 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107160: Dec 18th 2015 at 7:55:25 AM

Countered: the reason for the wild primary on the Republican side is that there are serious policy disagreements within the party. The nomination process is a testing ground for ideas within a massively fractured base.

The Democrats, by contrast, are startlingly unified in terms of their basic governing philosophy. They don't have a wing of crazies to contend with at the primary level — no candidate is espousing ecoterrorism or complete isolationism or the abolishing of religion or anything stupid like that.

So, while the GOP is busy tearing itself apart while it leaps as far to the right as possible, and providing ample fodder for attack ads during the Democratic campaign, the Democratic candidates are quietly building up their financial support, waiting for the general election season to begin. They gain no advantages by making a lot of sound and fury at this point.

Mainly, the Democratic primary is about whether Bernie Sanders can mount enough of an underdog campaign to unseat Hillary Clinton, and it's been interesting to observe, but I'm completely happy that the Republicans are providing all the popcorn-munching moments. Sensationalism may make for good TV ratings but it's terrible politics.

Do I believe that there is an organized movement among the Democratic establishment to coronate Hillary Clinton? Yes. However, that's not going to stop me from voting for her, because I agree with most of her positions anyway. If Sanders were to win the nomination, that would be gold, but silver is still pretty good, and I have some serious concerns about Sanders' viability; he's too much of a one-trick pony.

edited 18th Dec '15 7:56:35 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#107161: Dec 18th 2015 at 7:58:00 AM

Here's a quoteblocked version.

The Republicans are out there on every show and get cuffed about. They expose themselves to the scrum every day and take all comers. Mrs. Clinton considering interview requests is like a queen pointing at necklaces arrayed on a jeweler’s pillow: “I’ll take that one, not that one. I’ll think about that one.”

The Republicans are finally, fitfully fighting out real issues—ISIS, privacy. Mrs. Clinton is forced to fight no one, makes pronouncements and glides on.

The Republicans draw censure with their big, bodacious brawl. The Democrats should draw it for not struggling, grappling. The Republican Party was told to make Jeb king. No, they thundered. When the Democratic Party was asked to do a coronation, they pulled on their forelocks, bowed and said, “Yes, sire, may I do anything else?”

This is not like the Democratic Party! It was once a big brass band marching through the streets—loud, dissonant, there. “I’m not a member of any organized party,” Will Rogers famously said. “I’m a Democrat.” For generations Democrats repeated that line as a brag. They knew disorganized meant vital, creative, spontaneous, passionate—alive.

Now that party acts like this tidy, lifeless, fightless thing, a big, gray, dead-hearted, soul-killing blob. “I have the demographics,” it blobbily bellows, “I have the millennials.” Maybe it doesn’t have as much as it thinks. It is no honor to the Democratic Party that it is not fighting things through with a stage full of contenders this epochal year.

The Republicans are all chaos and incoherence, it’s true. But at least they’re alive. At least they’re fighting as if it matters.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#107162: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:18:44 AM

Which is better, a somewhat chaotic primary with new ideas and hard debates, or a very orderly primary with no new ideas and no real debates?

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#107163: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:19:58 AM

Considering all these new ideas involve WW3, genocide, and nuclear warfare in the Middle East I'd say the later.

Oh really when?
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#107164: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:23:08 AM

[up][up] Can I take a third option?

Though I've got to admit, glassing the middle east would solve alot of problems...

Nah, I'm totally kidding.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:29:53 AM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107165: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:23:23 AM

Yeah, I'm not sure that "new ideas" is necessarily a desirable goal given some of the ones we've seen so far. Anyway, it's a bit weird that Bernie Sanders, the insurgent candidate among the Democrats with those "new ideas" (not really, but let's pretend so because we're the media and we thrive on acting dumb for our audience), is being baldly ignored.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#107166: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:30:19 AM

Not seeing much new ideas in the Republican primary. Unless you consider Trumpisms to be "new ideas", and then we'd have to discuss Sanders's agenda as "new" as well.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#107167: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:32:59 AM

Essentially from what I've seen, its SSDD for Democrats and Republicans.

In my opinion they're stagnant.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:34:10 AM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#107168: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:33:54 AM

SSDD?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#107169: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:34:51 AM

[up]Same Shit Different Day.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:35:08 AM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Gault Laugh and grow dank! from beyond the kingdom Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: P.S. I love you
Laugh and grow dank!
#107170: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:36:15 AM

I suppose the Republicans to technically have new ideas, it's just all of them stand zero chance of improving things and every chance of making them worse. That's not much of an endorsement.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:37:33 AM by Gault

yey
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#107171: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:37:09 AM

Whether ideas are new or old is irrelevant. What's relevant is that they're good ideas.

Policy is not the technology sector. You don't rush policy on the basis of innovation for innovation's sake.

You can have a legitimate discussion about what policy actually is good, but when you start pegging the party that's got its shit together for not having "new ideas" you're basically just changing the topic of the conversation from a potentially meaningful one to one that's meaningless.

tl;dr version, "Same shit different day" is only a meaningful objection once one has already proven that something is shit.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:37:39 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#107172: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:40:36 AM

[up]

Policy is not the technology sector. You don't rush policy on the basis of innovation for innovation's sake.

Ah, you'd be surprised how many Laws get passed under the idea of "something must be done about x".

Keep Rolling On
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#107173: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:41:00 AM

There haven't been much in the way of new ideas in the Republican debates, just a doubling down on trends that have been ongoing for the past 20 years. The only guys proposing anything different have been the ones that have been going nowhere, while everyone else is jockeying to be the one to say that they'll do what everyone says they're going to do hardest, fastest, and best. It's also been a frightful display of ignorance and flat out wrongness on everything from what terms mean, to facts, to any idea about what's going on outside the borders of the US.

The Democratic debates haven't been perfect by any stretch, there should have been more of them and everyone who isn't Bernie and Hilary have been slighted by the moderators, but at least there was variety to pick from among the candidates. A self described socialist arguing against the economic and social trends of the last 35+ years. An ex-Republican from the South who's a hard bitten ex-soldier, ex-Senator, and a high ranker in the joint chiefs. An ex-Republican from the Northeast who's a lifelong politician. A younger Democrat for the coast trying to out-liberal people. One of the most famous veteran Democrats in politics.

What I think the Democratic side reflects, sadly, is how Democratic politicians have thoroughly embraced the idea that seniority is everything, so anyone young and with something to say is encouraged to sit back in the wings and wait their turn while the old hands take all the plum assignments and influential committee seats. It leaves those young voices silenced on the sidelines and commits Democrats to continuing on the bad trends of the last several decades.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:42:10 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#107174: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:51:11 AM

I'm going to chip in with the people saying that "new ideas" isn't a magical buzzword. Most new ideas are crap. It takes peer review, analysis, experimentation, and synthesis with existing paradigms to take an idea from conception to implementation.

It is typical of people who have a vested interest in the current broken system to use "new ideas" as a form of Moving the Goalposts. Newton's laws of motion didn't stop being valid because Einstein took them in a new direction. Many of the problems we face today, especially in the realm of economics, have theoretical solutions that are nearly a century old and have been used successfully in the past. Those solutions are being deliberately ignored.

What the "new ideas" people want is for our political energy and our attention to be diffused and blunted by the constant search for novelty, so that we don't notice the shell game that is being played in front of us.

Meanwhile, the areas in which we genuinely do need new ideas, new technology — environmental science is one such — are fiercely resisted by those same interests as being too "extreme", too out of touch with the traditional mainstream. Again, it's a brilliant bit of legerdemain.

Ignore tested solutions to problems by dangling the carrot of novelty in front of people, and ignore those workable innovations that do arise by swinging the stick of tradition. And the media just soaks it up.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:53:48 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#107175: Dec 18th 2015 at 8:52:00 AM

You focused on the "ideas" part of my point and not the "debate" point. Is there a debate going on over on the Democrat side? Is it healthy to have no real debate over who is going to be your candidate?


Total posts: 417,856
Top