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FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#106651: Dec 13th 2015 at 11:07:53 AM

Despite rhetoric on this thread, not all republicans like the shit the comes out of Trumps mouth, and not all of them understand the connection between that and dogwhistles from other candidates.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106652: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:13:34 PM

Obviously not. We know this. However, as far as the primary is concerned, what matters is that subset of the party sufficiently motivated to choose a candidate. Of those, the overwhelming majority prefer: (a) a fascist, (b) a theocrat, (c) a know-nothing.

Of all the active candidates, possibly the only one who's willing to concede any reality-based thought at all is John Kasich, and his polling numbers are miniscule.

This silent body of not-insane Republicans is, to all appearances, nonexistent at the national level.

Oh, and here's a gem from Politifact, in case anyone had any doubts about the relative truthfulness of the candidates. Ben Carson stands out with an 84% falsehood ratio.

edited 13th Dec '15 12:24:09 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#106653: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:29:07 PM

I wouldn't say non-existant. Republicans I've spoken to personally, who are neither casual about their politics nor the type to give a shit about the early horse race, are waiting until the actual primaries. They, in their own words, "are avoiding the media like the plague" until it's time for them to vote.

So again, they're around. They're not the ones taking part in the horse race. And I can't really blame them, given the tumult.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#106654: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:29:32 PM

Considering that we've had a lot of problems with police raping women around here, there are definite reasons to mistrust them.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
eyebones Since: Apr, 2004
#106655: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:32:19 PM

[up][up]Avoiding all new information before it is time to vote? Not a claim I'd be proud to make.

[up]Compare US cops to cops in GB or the Nordic countries. I mean, you would not be afraid to strike up a conversation with them. In the States, that would be asking for it. That is not 'just doing the job'. That's broken.

[up][up][up]Hadn't occurred to me. There are no sane Republican choices. Weird.

edited 13th Dec '15 12:39:37 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#106656: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:34:45 PM

Thats not what they mean. They aren't going to follow every soundbite and fluctuation in polls. They actually do research on the candidates by checking voting records and then checking their respective manifestos to see if what they want are what the candidate says he'll try and deliver.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106657: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:36:56 PM

Police have to earn the right to be trusted. It can't just happen automatically, especially with all the crap that's been going on of late (well, really, for a long time).

[up] Really? I've talked to a few self-described Republicans who are not rabid Trumpites and they seem almost uniformly discouraged by the political process; they realize how out of touch their party has become but can't bring themselves to jump ship because they still buy the rhetoric about elitist liberals. They don't seem the sort to rush enthusiastically to the polls to nominate Rubio or Bush.

edited 13th Dec '15 12:38:44 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
eyebones Since: Apr, 2004
#106658: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:42:01 PM

Yeah. Where have the 'we just want smaller government' guys gone? The ones who don't want to park their religions in your front room or banish all the "brown people"?

edited 13th Dec '15 1:22:30 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#106659: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:43:03 PM

Well frankly a great number of those types only wanted small government so they could lynch brown people themselves.

Oh really when?
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#106660: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:46:24 PM

Personally, I've never had any problems with the cops, even the times I've been pulled over and arrested (DUI, if you're wondering.) Then again, I've always lived in mostly rural areas with relatively low crime rates, and I've always been respectful towards the officers who, after all, are only doing their jobs.

Maybe this video can help certain other folks out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2plo4FOgIU

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Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#106661: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:48:42 PM

[up][up] Hmmm...isn't the term "brown people" racist?

Keep Rolling On
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#106662: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:49:17 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Oh don't get me wrong, the people I talked to feel the same way, but on certain issues where there is fundamental disagreement with democrats (for example, guns) that prevents them from voting for them. But they will also, if necessary, sit out the election as a wash if they aren't impressed with the eventual nominee.

[up][up][up][up]Thats what the people I'm talking to are. Most GOP I've met personally are like that. Some are the more religious type, but they generally see Trump for what he is with regards to them, and Carson is seen as straight up incompetant.

edited 13th Dec '15 12:53:29 PM by FFShinra

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106663: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:53:11 PM

[up][up] It seems to be a catch all for heavily oppressed racial minorities, so it's what you use when you need to say "black people/Arabs/Hispanics".

[up]X3 "Don't break the law" is pretty shit advise when DWB and DWH are very real things for people to get stopped for, not to mention the many many cases of police abuse where the victim never broke the law. Also we should have room for error in society, people going stupid shit shouldn't be gunned down without trial, whcih is what's happening now.

edited 13th Dec '15 12:56:22 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#106664: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:01:10 PM

It's also accurate, American racists really don't put that much thought into discrimination. You're either white or not a person.

Oh really when?
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#106665: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:13:44 PM

Tell that to the PA state trooper with a bullet in his shoulder, after he pulled over a 17-year-old for having an expired registration sticker.

Nine times out of ten, it begins as a routine traffic stop, which then escalates because the suspect panics and does something really stupid. Like pulling out a handgun (which a teenager shouldn't be carrying around) and shooting at the cops.

But then again, I guess I simply can't understand, because I'm a middle-aged white guy.

edited 13th Dec '15 2:01:00 PM by pwiegle

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eyebones Since: Apr, 2004
#106666: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:14:53 PM

Of course it is racist. The concept is racist. There is no non-racists word for it.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106667: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:42:59 PM

Tell that to the PA state trooper with a bullet in his shoulder, after he pulled over a 17-year-old for having an expired registration sticker.

Sure right after you tell your opinion to all the dead young black men who did nothing wrong but were gunned down anyway.

But then again, I guess I simply can't understand, because I'm a middle-aged white guy.

Hardly, I understand and I'm a white middle-class foreigner. Look at it this way, imagine if every time the police were around you feared for your life, not because you had done anything wrong, but because the police had an alarming tendency to assume that you did based on no evidence and then shoot first ask questions never.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#106668: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:46:03 PM

perhaps if the country wasn't paranoid and armed to the teeth...

advancing the front into TV Tropes
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#106669: Dec 13th 2015 at 1:46:57 PM

Thing is the statement quoted makes no allowance for the idea that he might be wrong, that what he's doing might be illegal, saying "no you can't arrest me what you're doing is illegal" is just grounds for him to beet the shit out of you for daring to question him.
Even if what he's doing is wrong, you're still only making it worse for yourself by resisting. A police officer is not going to defer to your judgment over whether or not his conduct is appropriate. They can't — if they did, every single person ever would tell them "you're wrong, you shouldn't be arresting me" and they'd never get any actual policing done.

It's also not "beating the shit out of you" for "daring to question him". It's using physical force to control the situation in order to ensure the safety of all involved — the person being manhandled included. Would you prefer that someone be pepper sprayed, tasered, wrestled to the ground, etc, or would you prefer that the police be forced to shoot them when they try to hurt someone? If you're being belligerent, the police will control you. They have to. Not only is it their job, it's also necessary to keep themselves and others safe.

Now, I'm not saying that police are infallible and never make mistakes or deliberately abuse their authority. They can and do, and should absolutely be held accountable when that happens. But the time to do that is after the incident has been safely resolved, by filing a formal legal complaint and going through the proper channels, not then and there by challenging the cop's authority on the scene.

That assumes that cooperating doesn't put either your life, your family or your livelihood in danger.
If that's the case, then you've already almost certainly done something wrong. Police do not, as a rule, respond to a situation with guns blazing. (One of the few exceptions to this is no-knock raids, which is — incidentally — why SWATing is so goddamn dangerous.) If an officer has their weapon drawn at all, then it's because they're involved in a potentially dangerous situation where lethal force may be necessary. If an officer pulls their gun and fires on someone who's standing there peacefully, posing no threat and not acting in a way that makes them seem like a threat, then that would be a clear-cut case of murder. The vast, vast majority of police shootings are not that sort of situation.

And any case, if you or your family's life or livelihood is in danger, how is resisting going to make the situation better? If someone is pointing a gun at you, do what they fucking say, whether it's a cop or not.

Also considering that police are regularly able to get away with murder in the US I don't see why one woudl think suing them would work.
Saying that police regularly get away with murder is a massive stretch. They occasionally — very occasionally — "get away with" using excessive force in a situation where it's not justified. Such things are usually national news, especially recently, with the "police are evilbadwrong" narrative on the rise. Sometimes the situation isn't clear enough to determine whether or not the officer was at fault, so they're not punished (because of the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing). Sometimes it turns out that the officer made the correct decision based on the information they had at the time, and didn't actually do anything wrong, in which case punishing them would be completely unjust. Often suing them does work, as the civil standards for wrongful death are much lower than the criminal standards for murder — so even if the officer isn't sent to jail, there's often an official judgment of wrongdoing against the officer and/or the department, and the victim (or their family) can receive compensation for what happened.

In any case, no matter what the situation, police shootings are a tragedy that we can and should do everything we can to avoid. The base issue here is the distrust between police and civilians. Things like body cameras are an enormous help in helping clear up the ambiguities of these situations, and can be used to exonerate good cops as much as convict bad cops, and they're being adopted fairly rapidly across the country.

Plus why should police who are doing illegal things be treated differently? Because I'm pretty sure the standard advise when someone tries to do something illegal to your isn't "do what they say and sue them later".
That's exactly what the standard advice is, actually. If you're being mugged, the advice is to give them what they want and then call the police afterwards. Confronting a criminal is one of the most dangerous things you can do, and generally speaking you shouldn't do it. If someone is threatening you with physical harm (be it a criminal or the police or whatever), then 99% of the time the correct response is to do exactly what they tell you in order to get out of the dangerous situation first, and worry about bringing them to justice later, when you're safe.

About the only exception is when someone is deliberately targeting you, personally (so that going along with them and giving them what they want is going to get you hurt anyway), but that's incredibly rare compared to other types of crimes where hurting you is not the goal of the situation.

Look at it this way, imagine if every time the police were around you feared for your life, not because you had done anything wrong, but because the police had an alarming tendency to assume that you did based on no evidence and then shoot first ask questions never.
I'm a 29 year old middle class dude who's WASP as shit and has never been arrested in his life, and I'm still nervous around cops. These are guys who carry lethal weapons and are authorized to use them if they deem necessary. Whenever I deal with the police, I go out of my way to avoid antagonizing them for precisely that reason. That's all the original quote was saying — don't antagonize the cops, and they won't treat you like a potential threat. (For the most part. There are still some people who are just assholes, and we should absolutely do everything we can to get them out of uniform.)

tldr, there is almost no situation when resisting the police is a better option than not resisting the police. About the only times I can think of where it's a good idea is 1) if the police are for some reason actively and deliberately trying to murder you for reasons that have nothing to do with being the police, and 2) you're taking part in a civil disobedience style passive resistance mass protest.

edited 13th Dec '15 1:53:14 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#106670: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:04:24 PM

I'm sick and tired of people over-playing the race card. They claim everything is due to racism, while completely ignoring all the other factors: crime, poverty, drugs, unemployment, urban decay, lack of education, media that glorifies the criminal lifestyle, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

New Rule: You can't accuse the cops of racism if there's actual criminal activity involved. You call it racial profiling, they call it "reasonable suspicion." In other words, if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

edited 13th Dec '15 2:13:38 PM by pwiegle

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eyebones Since: Apr, 2004
#106671: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:15:10 PM

Sorry you're tired of it. Imagine how it is for the people it targets.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#106672: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:16:15 PM

Where does all of that stuff come from? Why is there no political will to fix urban decay, or no will to fight the drug problem aside from "chuck 'em all in jail"?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106673: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:28:08 PM

Even if what he's doing is wrong, you're still only making it worse for yourself by resisting

Why does this not apply to every other interaction with a criminal? Why should you only "lay back and think of England" when it's a police officer committing criminal acts against your person? (edit: typing this post while reading yours, you point out that this is general advise when facing an armed aggressive threat (though anecdotally my brother actually once got out of being mugged by going "you'll have to fight me" and the mugger deciding it wasn't worth the effort), fair enough, but what about a threat that is not currently actively threatening you with a weapon but simply making illegal demands of you?)

If that's the case, then you've already almost certainly done something wrong.

I actually burst out laughing at this, come on, you're smarter then that.

Police do not, as a rule, respond to a situation with guns blazing.

There are a whole of unarmed, non-criminal black youth who'd dispute that statement. Or at least they would if they weren't you know, dead.

If an officer has their weapon drawn at all, then it's because they're involved in a potentially dangerous situation where lethal force may be necessary.

That's bollocks and you know it. I'd point you to the stats on how many unarmed people the police have shot when the only threat has been their own paranoia that "them darkies are coming", but sadly the police don't keep such records, so we don't even know.

If an officer pulls their gun and fires on someone who's standing there peacefully, posing no threat and not acting in a way that makes them seem like a threat, then that would be a clear-cut case of murder.

Well there's the problem, for a number of police officers being black is enough to count as "acting in a way that makes them seem like a threat"

And any case, if you or your family's life or livelihood is in danger, how is resisting going to make the situation better?

If they've actually got you at gunpoint yes, though thsi discussion did not start with that assumption, personally I'd suggest calling for help, you're slightly less likely to be gunned down if there are witnesses around.

Saying that police regularly get away with murder is a massive stretch.

How many police have been jailed for murder? yes it's a minority who do such things, but a majority seem to support them not being punished for it. And this is far from just a US problem, the Met have gotten away with killing an unarmed man for being in the way and a campaign of rape and abuse of women that went on for years.

Often suing them does work, as the civil standards for wrongful death are much lower than the criminal standards for murder

Sure, but that requires the victim/victims family to have the money to afford to sue them, which seeing as it's largely poor people who thsi happens to they normally don't.

tldr, there is almost no situation when resisting the police is a better option than not resisting the police. About the only times I can think of where it's a good idea is 1) if the police are for some reason actively and deliberately trying to murder you for reasons that have nothing to do with being the police, and 2) you're taking part in a civil disobedience style passive resistance mass protest.

I knew you were reasonable at heart. smile Here's the thing, civil disobedience is probably the most common situation where the police are going to be making demands they don't have the legal right to make, or where they might have the legal right but frankly shouldn't.

Also in part it's the principle, I shouldn't have to be afraid of the police, I am, but I shouldn't be, they're meant to be protecting us, not making us run in fear and give up our rights and freedoms.

while completely ignoring all the other factors: crime, poverty, drugs, unemployment, urban decay, lack of education, media that glorifies the criminal lifestyle,

Yeah because none of that stuff has its roots in racism. It's not like racial segregation and other policies have kept minorities poor and driven to crime for generations, or that the exact same crime (say use of a particular drug) carries a harsher sentence if done in the common black way rather then the common white way.

Oh wait...

New Rule: You can't accuse the cops of racism if there's actual criminal activity involved.

Yeah no, when the criminal activity is only criminal when done by white people it's racism. Though not that it matters, there are enough examples of non-criminal or detained and fully secured criminal, target police abuse to go around.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#106674: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:32:00 PM

Money, Dear Boy fixing urban decay costs money, something the United States public seems unwilling to do due to their belief that taxes = bad, and filling the prisons with people gives the corporations who run them an easy source of what is effectively slave labour

advancing the front into TV Tropes
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#106675: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:32:55 PM

@Native Jovian: Also, the law is stacked against you - resisting arrest statutes are usually not written to say "resisting a lawful arrest." Even resisting an unlawful arrest will get you slammed with charges. In some cases, the arrest being unlawful is a legal defense, but even still, it's a dumb idea to assert your rights - even if you "win" that confrontation, you've given the rest of the police force probable cause to arrest you, and do you think you're going to win in court? While we're at it, do you think you can defeat the officer on the scene or force him to back down without breaking more laws or giving him an excuse to use deadly force?

Also, if you're in the group where, for you, American society really is a police state (for example, a young African-American male), as a practical matter, do you think that fighting back against a cop will make them realize what they did wrong the next time you have to deal with them? No, it means you're in their files as the guy who resists arrest, and you're that much more likely to be taken down violently next time you meet them, whether or not that's legal.

edited 13th Dec '15 2:33:32 PM by Ramidel


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