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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106301: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:03:41 PM

Many Republicans have also said the proposal is crazy and/or un-American, but I think Jolly is the first one to actually call for him to withdraw his candidacy over it.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#106302: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:05:45 PM

Un-american is such a beautiful word, because it is such a hilarious level of Newspeak.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:11:17 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106303: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:11:21 PM

In a way, the proposal is highly American, if you consider that it speaks directly for a vocal subset of the population, who are as stereotypically American as it's possible to get. It's blatantly unconstitutional, of course, but that's not the same thing.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#106304: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:11:25 PM

Well other Republicans and the RNC and even foreign dignitaries don't really matter, what do the voters say?

Oh really when?
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106305: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:13:15 PM

Well, technically speaking it appears it wouldn't actually be unconstitutional. There are laws on the books that allow a President to restrict immigration for classes of people, and under those laws the President could indeed restrict a religious group from entering the country. They were used in the past to prevent advocates of Communism from entering the country, for instance, or to bar the entry of Chinese workers even further back - and the laws were successfully defended in the Supreme Court, so there is precedent. Un-American therefore seems a more accurate term to use to describe the plan, if we're talking about TODAY's America, at least. It would certainly not be morally defensible either. And of course it would be unconstitutional to not allow a Muslim who is already an American citizen to re-enter the country, which Trump didn't seem to foresee as a possible problem with the plan.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#106306: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:17:05 PM

There are plenty of Republican Governors and Senators in swing/blue states that would be in serious trouble if they threw their support behind Trump. At the very least they would have to remain neutral.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#106307: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:17:32 PM

[up][up][up] Wa-pa-pa-pa-papapow!?

But yeah, Paul Ryan came out lambasting Trump's espoused viewpoint, which is a bit stunning - though to be fair, Ryan tends to be more of an economic wonk (or at least has the reputation of being one).

And that said, one of the bigger aspects of Trump possibly getting nominated is that, if the bigwigs do decide to intervene and block it, that'd pretty much drain the credibility from our current voting system, which would be a mixed bag to say the least.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:27:51 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106308: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:26:41 PM

The Constitutional provision of religious tests for elected office obviously doesn't apply to immigration. The Equal Protections clause of the 14th Amendment only applies to states, not on a Federal level. Immigration is a Federal level issue, not a state issue. The First Amendment provides protection of exercise of religion, but it would be an awkward argument that the right to immigrate is a protected religious right. The Supreme Court basically rejected the 1st Amendment as a grounds to be allowed to enter the country in a 1972 case - Kleindienst vs. Mandel, when Belgian Communist advocate Ernest Mendel was denied entry into the country. So there might not be constitutional grounds to make the plan illegal. Doesn't make it any less immoral though.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106309: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:30:11 PM

Title 8, Section 1182 of the U.S. Code: "Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#106310: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:32:21 PM

What is right, and what is the law is seldom the same.

Doesn't mean we don't get to call out shitlords for trying to excuse awful things.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#106311: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:32:46 PM

Sounds like we need to make a couple new Amendments then.

Oh really when?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#106312: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:33:51 PM

Folly was full of crap. He twice dodged the question of whether he would support Trump if he was the nominee. Without exception from those running for office, the response has been "He's not going to be the nominee" to the question of "if he were the nominee, would you support him?"

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#106313: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:39:16 PM

In a way, the proposal is highly American, if you consider that it speaks directly for a vocal subset of the population, who are as stereotypically American as it's possible to get.

I beg to differ. The USA are not Redneckland, the country's identity does not belong to racist fucks. The USA are a huge, diverse country, with plenty of things that are unique to it and meritorious, noble, and admirable.

Sorry for jumping in like this, but I have strong feelings about this kind of intelligentsia antipatriotism. It was inappropriate and unfair in 1943, and remains so today.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:40:08 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106314: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:40:37 PM

It doesn't need an amendment - just have congress re-write that particular section of the code so that the President is prohibited from using religious belief to define a class of immigrants he wants to bar from entry.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#106315: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:42:07 PM

Hell, I would sign a petition to ban Trump from the UK, and I'm an American. Of course, I'd also like to ban him from the US, and every other nation in the world. Let him be like The Man Without a Country. (Except Trump would probably live on a mega-yacht, not be passed around from one ship to another.)

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#106316: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:43:37 PM

The president already can't use religion as a baseline for discrimination. Enumerated powers can't violate other aspects of the US constitution unless they state otherwise.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106317: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:46:38 PM

As I said, there was already a 1st Amendment case proposing that a person couldn't be barred from entry on the basis of free speech, and it failed 6-3 in the Supreme Court.

As of right now, yes, the President can choose to bar ANY class of aliens from entry, including a religious class.

I think no one one has changed this particular law because no one thought a President might want to bar a specific religion from entry into the country these days.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106318: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:47:59 PM

For that matter the President at this point could bar entry of homosexuals, or women, or blacks, or even TV tropes contributors, as long as they aren't U.S. citizens already. The law says "ANY class".

edited 9th Dec '15 1:53:29 PM by Bense

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#106319: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:57:39 PM

Problem is the way he was saying it seemed to imply it would be a bar on Muslim American citizens abroad at the time when the law goes into effect from returning to the US.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:57:55 PM by Deadbeatloser22

"Yup. That tasted purple."
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#106320: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:08:14 PM

I think you're overreading the Kleindienst case. That explicitly referred to the right to immigration by free speech. This is different: it's a challenge to public policy.

The equal protection clause is applied to the federal government, as established by the 5th amendment through due process, as described in Bolling v Sharpe.

Don't get me wrong. Prohibiting immigration from "Muslim countries" would probably be permitted, but prohibiting immigration on the basis of the individual's religion very clearly fails the non-discrimination test.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:10:56 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#106321: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:15:52 PM

Sounds like a "Chaotic" vs "Lawful" confrontation.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#106323: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:26:05 PM

Eh, the attack wasn't that dramatic.

Which is why Trump bitching about the damned bird is so annoying. "SUCK IT UP YOU BIG BABY!"

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#106324: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:29:02 PM

Still doesn't get more symbolic than the bird associated with America itself snapping at you.

Keybreak (Long Runner)
#106325: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:29:43 PM

What about being tangled in a waving American flag.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:29:49 PM by Keybreak

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay

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