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Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#106226: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:13:27 AM

So Bense, just out of curiosity, who are you leaning towards in the GOP race?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106227: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:13:30 AM

[up][up] That is somewhat apocryphal, but it is certainly true in spirit.

Even in the Fox GOP debate, Megyn Kelly got a lot of flak from the candidates for asking them "gotcha" questions, such as how they would respond to criticism about certain aspects of their candidacy. Note that almost the exact same thing was done by Anderson Cooper in the first Democratic debate, but the candidates treated the questions seriously instead of as media attacks.

If you are going to be defensive and hurt when someone asks you how you'd handle an issue that is certain to be on the table in the general election, you are not qualified to be a candidate.

@Bense: Romney's campaign was an empty shell for the one percent. He is a classic case of hand-me-down wealth and inherited privilege believing itself to be possessed of moral superiority over everyone else. His tax policy was risible, his foreign policy was basically "bomb whatever the military-industrial complex tells me to", and his social policy was nonexistent. If your goal is to have giant corporations own America, he was certainly your man, but that isn't typically what the man-on-the-street Republican says they want.

edited 8th Dec '15 11:20:01 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106228: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:18:01 AM

Yeah even if we chalk the CNBC debate up to being due to the hosts, what about the Fox debate? That was a train wreck as well.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#106229: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:21:27 AM

White House spokesman: Donald Trump Muslim comment 'disqualifies' him from presidency

Of course, the question in my mind is whether the fact this statement comes from the White House will cause Republicans to cling even harder to Trump as their choice.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106230: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:23:26 AM

Well, for one thing, Trump's plan would be thrown out of any court it was challenged in on Constitutional grounds, probably before the ink dried on the lawsuit. But it makes for good sound bites for his base.

Also, we've seen some pretty awful Presidents. I'm not sure that "qualified" is a definable criteria set, other than the basics set out in the Constitution itself.

Obviously, the White House has to denounce him, but every Democratic politician is quietly salivating over the prospect of Clinton facing off against Trump in the general election.

Edit: I have to wonder if he might face a delegate revolt in the primaries — the delegates charged with casting their ballots on the basis of primary results at the nominating convention could refuse their mandate and vote for someone else. It would not be the most surprising thing about this election.

edited 8th Dec '15 11:28:56 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#106231: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:36:30 AM

[up] A lot more then the White House have condemned Trump's comments — the UN and David Cameron have, amongst many others:

Mr Trump issued a campaign statement following the San Bernardino shootings calling for "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on".

His comments were criticised by other contenders for the Republican nomination, including Jeb Bush, who called the property tycoon "unhinged".

Campaigners against Mr Trump's golf course development in Scotland have submitted a petition to Parliament calling for him to be barred from the UK "for his continued, unrepentant hate speech and unacceptable behaviour".

Mr Cameron's spokeswoman declined to say whether he would be willing to meet Mr Trump or whether he could be barred from the UK, describing the questions as "hypothetical". She added: "The prime minister has been very clear that, as we look at how we tackle extremism and this poisonous ideology, what politicians need to do is look at ways they can bring communities together and make clear that these terrorists are not representative of Islam and indeed what they are doing is a perversion of Islam."

And it's not just Muslims, it's London and Paris, too:

Mr Trump caused further controversy on Tuesday when he claimed that parts of London were "so radicalised the police are afraid for their lives".

The Mayor of London Boris Johnson responded by saying the "ill-informed comments are complete and utter nonsense". He added: "As a city where more than 300 languages are spoken, London has a proud history of tolerance and diversity and to suggest there are areas where police officers cannot go because of radicalisation is simply ridiculous.

"I would welcome the opportunity to show Mr Trump first hand some of the excellent work our police officers do every day in local neighbourhoods throughout our city. Crime has been falling steadily both in London and in New York - the only reason I wouldn't go to some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump."

The Conservative Party candidate for London Mayor, Zac Goldsmith, described Mr Trump as "an utterly repellent figure" and "one of the most malignant figures in politics".

Sadiq Khan, Labour's candidate for Mayor of London, said: "Donald Trump doesn't have a clue about London. He is clearly ignorant about London's tolerance and diversity and also about how unified we are as a city.

"Trump can't just be dismissed as a buffoon - his comments are outrageous, divisive and dangerous - I condemn them utterly them and hope his campaign dies a death."

UKIP leader Nigel Farage told BBC News: "Mr Trump's somewhat kneejerk reaction to this, saying that all Muslims should be banned from coming into America, was, perhaps, for him, a political mistake too far."

edited 8th Dec '15 11:38:16 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106232: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:39:47 AM

Even his fellow Republican candidates have denounced him, and they stand the most to lose from alienating voters who agree with Trump on the matter.

I think that what really needs to happen here is for all of his business contacts to cut him off. Destroy his business empire and maybe he'll start to feel the consequences in a meaningful way.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#106233: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:41:10 AM

[up] And as I mentioned earlier, for Trump to be barred from entering the UK and all his assets here, business and personal, seized.

Keep Rolling On
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#106234: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:49:02 AM

"the only reason I wouldn't go to some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump."

I felt that burn from across the Atlantic, nice one Boris.cool I'd almost consider voting for him if I could, but his policies are too small-c conservative for my taste.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#106235: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:50:34 AM

On the subject of asking congress for authorization to prosecute the war. Have you read the details of said authorization, the draft he sent in February? He goes out of his way to limit himself to just what he's doing right now. That puts off those who want him to do more than he already is and puts off those who would rather he do nothing. It's the Golden Mean Fallacy as applied to an AUMF. Obama has to pick one.

Not to mention, it's not like Obama is actually pushing all that hard for it...he already thinks he has the authority.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106236: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:30:05 PM

@The Wanderer: Well good for Rupert Murdoch for admitting it. The fact is that every journalist in the business is in the business because of their personal ideology and a desire to make a difference in the world. Why would any sane Democrat agree to a debate on Fox? Because it would make for a much more interesting debate, and who knows, it might have actually saved the Democrats from nominating Mrs. Clinton if she had been asked the right questions.

@Rational Insanity: I am suspending judgement until Trump stops producing quite so much noise and the other candidates don't have to spend all their time just reacting to his awfulness and can maybe plot their own course a little. I keep hoping his latest blunder will be the one that puts his campaign under, and perhaps this might actually be it. If, God forbid, the final choice does end up being between Trump and Clinton I'll probably do a write-in or something.

@Greenmantle: seizing all of Trump's assets and barring him from entry into your country is an approach I would not agree with. "Your opinion offends me, therefore I will do everything in my power to destroy you," is an attitude far too common in the world today. I think the proper response is to respect that Mr. Trump has a right to his opinion and then point out the flaws in that opinion (not hard to do in this case. For one thing, as has already been pointed out, it would be completely unconstitutional). The antidote to free speech you disagree with is more free speech, not censorship or attempts at reprisals. If your opinion really is superior it should come out ahead in the end.

@Fighteer, I will just say that I respectfully disagree with your caricatures, and urge you respectfully reconsider your opinions if one of them actually does end up President of the United States. I don't like the job President Obama is doing (obviously) but I have nothing against him personally - he seems like a nice guy, really, and a decent man overall.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106237: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:34:04 PM

[up] I doubt that I am in danger of having to reconsider my opinions on the Republican candidates, especially if one of them somehow manages to get elected. I'm just hoping that we can hand the party a sufficiently overwhelming defeat that they start to rethink their pandering to the Tea Party elements and try to reclaim it.

As just some examples of the insanity, not a single Republican candidate has embraced the need to do something about man-made climate change, if they acknowledge it as more than a conspiracy by the left. It is now unacceptable for any candidate to suggest any form of amnesty for illegal immigrants. Not a single viable candidate has proposed strengthening background checks for firearm purchases, even though the majority of Republican voters do support that. Every candidate who has submitted a tax reform plan has made the system more regressive, handing trillions in unfunded tax breaks to the very wealthy.

No candidate has stood out against the absurd push to defund Planned Parenthood. No candidate has stood behind Obamacare, despite it being a conservative program that has been criticized by many as a handout to insurers.

edited 8th Dec '15 12:39:07 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106238: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:38:40 PM

If your opinion really is superior it should come out ahead in the end.

Sure, but that doesn't stop people being hurt or indeed killed in the mean time, there's a reason you can't claim free speech for shouting "fire" in a crowded building. Now under US law Trump hasn't crossed the line to that, but under UK law he might well have. We don't let hate preachers into our country because we don't want them getting people hurt/killed.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106239: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:38:54 PM

[up]@F Ighteer, Well let's just say I'm not as confident as you in my judgement of people I've never actually met face to face then.

edited 8th Dec '15 12:39:54 PM by Bense

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106240: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:40:28 PM

Their faces are on TV everywhere you look. What we are seeing is what they want us to be seeing, the faces they put on in order to get elected. To say that we shouldn't judge them on that basis is absurd. What else do we have to go by? Well, other than their voting records and a whole lot of other public information.

I don't need to meet the President in person to decide whether I think he's doing a good job.

edited 8th Dec '15 12:41:36 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106241: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:40:49 PM

[up][up] Where did Fighter talk about them personally, he just listed the problem he has with their politics, making no mention of if they're nice people personally (though using someone's politics to make a guess at what they're like personally is entirely logical).

edited 8th Dec '15 12:40:58 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#106242: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:41:24 PM

[up][up][up] Given the odds of meeting such people face to face to start with, all a anyone has to go on is information like news articles.

edited 8th Dec '15 12:41:45 PM by sgamer82

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#106243: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:50:53 PM

"Where did Fighter talk about them personally, he just listed the problem he has with their politics, making no mention of if they're nice people personally"

"Jeb Bush...is a wooden plank, no personality, no motivation, nothing." "Rand Paul, the...misanthrope who visibly hates...people, really." "Chris Christie, the corrupt bully..." Etc. Those sound like personal criticisms rather than policy differences to me.

I'm not saying you have to meet these people face-to-face, just that I think Fighteer seems to be repeating popular caricatures rather than talking about generally accomplished, successful people who have understandable reasons for believing and acting as they do.

To be fair I did rather strongly imply that Mr. Trump is a bigoted, ignorant fool, or at least that he says bigoted, ignorant, foolish things.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#106244: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:51:14 PM

Eh. Not since the Civil Rights Movements era has any U.S candidacy ever been so broiled with social issues. I doubt most of us here were alive and voting or interested in that by that time, so I doubt that experience-wise, anyone has any paralel to what transpires in the respective party elections.

History-wise, though, at least in the U.S, the 1964 campaign is a clear precedent.

The Republicans were thoroughly fucked.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106245: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:55:11 PM

[up][up]Have you seen any of Jeb's ads? His public appearances? To be sure, it's a personal judgment, but the man has no charisma. You'd think he'd try to put his best face forward given that he's at 3 percent in the polls, but every attempt to "reinvent" his campaign fails. The man just doesn't seem to have any enthusiasm for running for office.

Rand Paul, a short while ago, put out a "day in the life" video for his campaign, where he walked around town, answered questions from Google, and basically did a lengthy vlog. During the whole time, he was grumping about the stupidity of the exercise, how he hates campaigning, and the pointlessness of the questions he was asked. Look it up.

Chris Christie has a long history of bullying and corruption in his public capacity, "Bridgegate" being only one. He has adopted a "because I'm right, so shut up" approach to governing and has conducted vicious harassment and intimidation campaigns against his political opponents. Again, this is all on the public record.

edited 8th Dec '15 12:55:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#106246: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:57:27 PM

Also, it's OK to call him Trump or Donald. This isn't the New York Times.

(That sounded rude but I promise it wasn't meant that way)

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#106247: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:57:41 PM

[up][up][up]Did they have their own Trump doing much the same thing, I take it?

edited 8th Dec '15 12:58:02 PM by sgamer82

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#106248: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:59:09 PM

To be fair to Jeb, not having charisma is not the same thing as not being a competant commander in chief. I'd rather vote for a policy wonk than an empty suit.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#106249: Dec 8th 2015 at 1:03:33 PM

Did they have their own Trump doing much the same thing, I take it?

Barry Goldwater was very similar to the more "moderate" Republican candidates. Phrases like "it is more of a state only thing" and for the states to decide, and even liberal policies annoying him.

Funny enough, Barry Goldwater did not have the support of Mitt Romney's dad when campaigning.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#106250: Dec 8th 2015 at 1:08:22 PM

[up][up] I agree, but Jeb! is an empty suit when it comes to policy, as well. He's adopted his brother's ideas, his brother's policy advisers, and basically promised to be George W. Bush 2.0. He might be the only person in the race who has good things to say about that administration. But his answers when asked about his policy positions betray gross ignorance of reality. It's like he's going through the motions of a campaign.

edited 8th Dec '15 1:08:53 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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