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JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#106001: Dec 6th 2015 at 2:12:53 PM

[up][up] The CIA is doing exactly what the US government tells them to do. Just a few years ago Obama was bragging about how his drone strikes in Yemen and Pakistan and defeated Al Qaeda. Hell it was a key component of his re election campaign. Call the CIA evil if you like, but they are doing what they do with the full knowledge and approval of the White House.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106002: Dec 6th 2015 at 2:34:25 PM

Yeah considering the widespread support the CIA has for pointless tourture, killing civilians and other atrocities I'm not sure if the American public get to say the CIA has gone rouge, the CIA is doing what the Anerican people want, that just happens to be fucking horrible shit.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#106003: Dec 6th 2015 at 2:35:24 PM

[up][up]That doesn't make what they're doing okay. I'd stop short of calling them "evil", but there are definite problems with the way the CIA is conducting itself. The problem is basically that the CIA is a friggen intelligence agency. Why are they even doing any strikes themselves? They should be gathering intelligence and then passing it along to the actual military to make the strike, if necessary.

Most of the drone strike bullshit that's gone on is because the CIA doesn't hold itself to the same standard that the military does in terms of making strikes.

edited 6th Dec '15 2:35:45 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106004: Dec 6th 2015 at 2:36:59 PM

[up] Jack didn't say that what the CIA is doing is okay, just that it's incorrect to claims that it has "practically gone rogue".

edited 6th Dec '15 3:04:26 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#106005: Dec 6th 2015 at 2:55:04 PM

I agree that the CIA is too overpowdered to be allowed to go rouge. tongue

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#106006: Dec 6th 2015 at 3:03:57 PM

You Satin, you!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#106007: Dec 6th 2015 at 3:55:16 PM

I think the secret se(r)vices in all Western countries have the same dilemma. The people wants them to be both perfectly efficient and perfectly respectful of the law, but mostly efficient.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#106008: Dec 6th 2015 at 4:01:13 PM

It's like the mechanic's dilemma: Fast, Good, or Cheap. Pick two.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#106009: Dec 6th 2015 at 4:04:30 PM

[up][up] Hardly, the CIA's illegal methods are horribly ineffective, the tourture fails to produce results, gives false positives and makes a ton of enemies, likewise the CIA drone strikes create more terrorists then they kill, due to how the relatives of the civilian casualties tend to become terrorists.

No it's the issue of efficacy compared to short term quantifiable results. It's easy to show that you've blown up 100 terrorists, it's much harder to show that you've prevented 100 terrorists from becoming terrorists.

We don't want results from the intelligence services, we want to be made to feel like we're winning. We chose feeling like we're winning over actually winning.

edited 6th Dec '15 4:05:35 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#106010: Dec 6th 2015 at 5:26:26 PM

And then we find out we had AIDS. We share it with our friends. They use it to blackmail us. So we're forced to admit to it in public.

edited 6th Dec '15 5:27:28 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#106011: Dec 6th 2015 at 6:17:39 PM

The end of the Age of Marble. Oh boy I knew this would come about at some time or another. I don't know how we should handle this. Whatever comes of it I say we keep Abe around as an icon. And yes I know how all of this looks to foreigners, "look those stupid Americans are still worshiping neo fascist idols of long dead racists."

How does Europe handle it's history? I know the Spanish named Warships after Conquistadors, the British still refer to various things as "Imperial" and the Belgium's still have statues of King Leopold up for some reasons. Nevertheless I assume they do it in a much more politically correct and enlightened way.

edited 6th Dec '15 6:18:22 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#106012: Dec 6th 2015 at 6:24:22 PM

Jack, you need to stop putting words in other people's mouths. For one, I highly doubt that is even the opinion of the majority of Europeans. I'm pretty sure that most of them don't actually care what we think about our historical figures because it doesn't have anything to do with their lives.

And it's not a bad thing to re-evaluate those people either, which seems to be what that article was aiming at. It even warns against painting them as totally bad.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#106013: Dec 6th 2015 at 6:33:23 PM

[up] Nobody on this forum has said that certainly, but I've heard it said in other places. And I wouldn't necessarily about the whole thing not reminding me to a certain extent of North Korea's reverence of the Kims.

Edit: I guess your right, I'm just really touchy and paranoid when it comes to History.

Edit 2: Speaking of Historical Figures in need of revaluation: Jimmy Carter beats cancer. smilesmile

edited 6th Dec '15 6:53:15 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#106014: Dec 6th 2015 at 7:08:39 PM

[up] There's a difference between wanting to commemorate people you perceive as "great" and what's basically idolatry. North Korea's reverence of the Kims is the latter. They turned their former (and present) leaders into idols to be worshipped.

I don't know enough about your former presidents to judge them; that's up to you. But if it helps, we still have a lot of statues commemorating Bismarck and several German kings and other nobles, at least outside the former GDR.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#106015: Dec 6th 2015 at 7:10:34 PM

Once we start worshiping Lincoln like a God, I'll let you call it idolatry (and no, we really don't worship him like a god, no matter what anyone else thinks)

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#106016: Dec 6th 2015 at 7:17:20 PM

You've mentioned that you get touch and paranoid before, Jack, so maybe you ought to reconsider your posts once you've written them. In any case, there was nothing in that article that was particularly condemnatory about anyone. It was just noting about the trend of reevaluating how we've commemorated and how some don't think that's appropriate anymore. Which is fair, even if I don't think it's all that big a deal. (A bust is a relatively small thing so I guess I don't see what the point is in moving it, unless it's going to a museum or something. I like museums.)

I'm sure in two hundred year's time they'll be having the same conversation about different commemorative artworks.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#106017: Dec 6th 2015 at 7:17:27 PM

[up][up] I know that. I just wanted to point why comparing how Americans commemorate former leaders to North Korea is silly.smile

edited 6th Dec '15 7:17:39 PM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#106018: Dec 6th 2015 at 8:49:24 PM

The wholesale condemnation of historical figures because there are negative aspects to them strikes me as silly. The bad things they did in their lives don't completely blot out the good any more than the good things completely blot out the bad. It's entirely possible to view them as what they were — men who in many ways shaped history, and in many ways were shaped by it. We can appreciate and respect the positive impact they had on history while still understanding that they were not perfect and many of the views they held we would find abhorrent if expressed today.

In particular, failing to publically denounce slavery in the 1700s does not make you a Complete Monster, especially since that particular issue took another century and a civil war to resolve (and more than a century after that, we're still dealing with the fallout in many ways).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#106019: Dec 6th 2015 at 9:05:57 PM

I've been thinking about starting a thread on that topic but not really sure what to call it.

I think it's really YMMV as to which commemorations of "dead white guys" should stay and which should go. It probably comes down to the degree to which the person was fair for their day coupled with the extent to which what they are being commemorated for involves their problematic aspects.

So like for example, I'm very much in favor of removing H.P. Lovecraft's image from the World Fantasy Awards but not so much in favor of taking Woodrow Wilson's name off of a school involved with foreign policy (since while Wilson was horribly racist, that played less of a role in his foreign policy than it did his domestic policy).

This issue with a Harvard logo is a tough one. Because it's the coat of arms of a guy who literally founded the law school through selling slaves- so not sure how to balance his importance to the school with the slave trading. And at least speaking personally, wonder how the logo personally harms Harvard students. Like as a contrast, part of why the Lovecraft removal seems a good idea is because of his association with elements of the community that are hostile to minorities. I don't doubt that there are people who are hostile to minorities at Harvard, but the fact that the logo is a slaveholder's coat of arms seems more like a symptom than a cause.

edited 6th Dec '15 9:08:16 PM by Hodor2

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#106020: Dec 6th 2015 at 9:35:43 PM

[up]"Presentism"?

edited 6th Dec '15 9:36:45 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#106021: Dec 6th 2015 at 9:41:55 PM

There's a lot of soft fuzzy lines with the issue. On one hand, it's easy to understand removing people who should have never got nice statues and holidays in the first place *coughcough*Colombus*coughcough*... Some people are a bit harder.

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#106022: Dec 6th 2015 at 11:15:22 PM

[up][up]

Looking at historical characters/happenings through the eyes of the present, rather than looking at the times they actually happened.

The only thing that people should be commemorated by are their actions and headstones.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#106023: Dec 6th 2015 at 11:33:27 PM

[up]I know what Presentism means, I was suggesting that as a title for Hodor's thread.

Leviticus 19:34
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#106024: Dec 7th 2015 at 12:07:59 AM

[up]

Ach, read that wrong.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#106025: Dec 7th 2015 at 2:48:11 AM

Merry Gun-toting Christmas everyone!

One thing that really bothers me is celebrating Christmas in places like Phoenix and Las Vegas. It's too far from the pole, it completely dilutes the meaning of Yule. You know, A New Hope, and so on.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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