TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#105776: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:30:04 PM

[up][up] True, but imagine if you were denned the right to drive based purely on being on a watch list despite having committed no crimes. It doesn't have to be a fundamental right for it being taken away arbitrarily to be screwed up.

[up] He said that before and still turned up, it's a bluff.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#105777: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:33:42 PM

Losing the right to own a gun would not cripple your ability to function in society the same way not being able to drive would. It's also a bad analogy because we deny people the right to drive all the damn time.

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:34:05 PM by Kostya

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#105778: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:35:50 PM

The difference is there's nothing about driving in the Constitution, but there is an amendment about guns. You don't have to like it, but not liking it doesn't make it not true.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#105779: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:38:23 PM

[up][up] Do you deny people the right to drive for committing no crimes and not having failed any of the tests or requirements that are put to them?

If you deny people the right to anything (be it fly, drive, or own a gun) simply because they happen to share a name with someone who's regarded as slightly suspicious then you're being massive dicks.

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:38:35 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#105780: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:41:39 PM

You seem to be approaching this from the perspective that being on the terror watchlist isn't a valid reason to deny a person the right to own a gun. The FBI should make sure the people on the list have valid reasons for being on there but if they do I think denying them that right is perfectly justified. If a person has a visual impairment they can be denied the right to drive because they pose a potential threat to others. This is no different.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#105781: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:50:16 PM

I'm approaching it from the perspective that being on a terror watch list is a valid reason only for you to be under survaliance and nothing else. As in the end the lists include babies, have no appeals process, have no requirements for a legal case or evidence, require no court order or any other facet of due process for a person to be out on them.

a person denied the right to drive for poor eyesight knows it, can appeal and has a known system in place saying that they must meet specific certain eyesight requirements. A person denied a right for being on a watchlist doesn't know it, can't appeal it and knows of no specific requirements to avoid being denied that right because no specific requirements exist.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#105782: Dec 2nd 2015 at 10:00:46 PM

You seem to be approaching this from the perspective that being on the terror watchlist isn't a valid reason to deny a person the right to own a gun
That's correct. You can be put on a watchlist for any reason or none at all. There's no oversight for them, no method to correct the situation if someone is added accidentally or mistakenly, no way to even tell if you're on a watchlist except by experience (ie, "I keep buying plane tickets and they refuse to let me board, what the hell?!").

You shouldn't be putting legal restrictions on anyone without any sort of due process.

edited 2nd Dec '15 10:01:12 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#105783: Dec 2nd 2015 at 10:38:30 PM

@Fighteer, Jovian: Of course I'm opposed to having rights stripped for being on a watchlist, at all. Second Amendment rights are no different from flying rights in this respect - except that the former have better-connected defenders.

Either way, saying that because watchlists exist, they should therefore be used to take away gun rights as well as other rights without any sort of due process, is a rather silly argument.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#105784: Dec 2nd 2015 at 11:37:37 PM

San Bernardino shooting: Police kill two suspects after hunt

Police in California have named two suspects killed after a mass shooting which left 14 people dead at a social services centre.

The man and woman, Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, and Tashfeen Malik, 27, were killed in an exchange of fire with police. Farook had been a county employee for five years, San Bernadino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said.

The attack took place at an office event on Wednesday. None of the victims has been identified. The incident marks the deadliest mass shooting in the US since 26 people were killed at a school in Newtown, Connecticut in 2012. Mr Burguan, who said another 17 people were wounded, said police were "reasonably confident" that there were just two shooters.

The dead man and woman were believed to be a couple, he said. They were armed with assault rifles and semi-automatic handguns and wore military-style clothing. Three possible explosive devices were found at the Inland Regional Center, where the shooting took place.

The police chief said that Farook had left the event - which was possibly a holiday party or a meeting - "under some circumstances that were described as angry" and returned with Malik. Earlier, the FBI said it was not ruling out the possibility of terrorism but the situation is still being investigated.

Rumour is the husband and wife also had six-month old daughter.

edited 3rd Dec '15 12:08:08 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#105785: Dec 3rd 2015 at 3:40:46 AM

Does the far right allow people with Arabic names into their groups? I imagine any groups their terrible enough to do something like this wouldn't even try to hide their racism.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#105786: Dec 3rd 2015 at 3:53:25 AM

Arabic names, on a terror list and gone into a killing spree.

Trump will have a field day with this.

Inter arma enim silent leges
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#105787: Dec 3rd 2015 at 3:55:10 AM

They were on the terror watch list? If anything this should disprove Trump's claim that listing all Muslims in the US will do something.

Edit: And for all we know they could be Atheists who converted away from Islam. And Arabic Christians exist too you know.

edited 3rd Dec '15 3:58:15 AM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#105788: Dec 3rd 2015 at 4:39:07 AM

In other news, private GOP strategy memo leaked, showing more than a few are weary about Trump wining the primary.

1 To: NRSC Senior Staff From: Ward Baker Date: September 22, 2015 Re: Observations on Donald Trump and 2016

The place is Cleveland, Ohio. The date is July 21, 2016 and Donald Trump has just accepted the nomination of the Republican Party to be its nominee for President of the United States . Not since liberal Republican businessman Wendell Willkie won the GOP nomination in 1940, had another dark horse candidate stood as its nominee for President. And, Willkie and Trump have a lot in common. Both were seen as fresh-faced outsiders. Each had the backing or received the promotion of major news media outlets, and both we’re outside of the established political order. Willkie would go on to lose to wartime President Franklin Roosevelt, but this time it’s harder to predict an outcome because of the volatility of the electorate. Trump has risen because voters see him as authentic, independent, direct, firm, —- and believe he can’t be bought. These are the same character traits our candidates should be advancing in 2016.That’s Trump lesson #1. We should prepare for 2016, by understanding the environment and recognizing the Trump phenomenon.

The following are a series of recommendations to consider if Donald Trump is the GOP nominee in 2016: 

Trump is a Misguided Missile. Let’s face facts. Trump says what’s on his mind and that’s a problem. Our candidates will have to spend full time defending him or condemning him if that continues. And, that’s a place we never, ever want to be. It is certain that all GOP candidates will be tied in some way to our nominee, but we need not be tied to him so closely that we have to engage in permanent cleanup or distancing maneuvers. 

Run Your Own Race . You’re running for the U.S. Senate so focus on that. Don’t get drawn into every Trump statement and every Trump dust-up. Keep the focus on your own campaign and the voters back home. 

Show your Independence. As we know, Trump is subject to farcical fits. You can still obey the “run your own campaign” edict, while still taking Trump to task on outrageous statements where the media won’t let you off the hook. Choose opportunities to take the moral high ground while exerting your independence. 

Remember the Basics. Every campaign is about telling voters who you are, what you want to do, and why you’re the best choice for the job. Turn your biography into a compelling narrative that shows you’re one of them. Promote a new vision (what you want to do) and own the future. Stake out new issue turf or reframe issues so it has a new look to it. This allows you to separate from the national debate, promote issues you care about in a new manner, and it’s harder for opponents to knock since you’re offering a future vision. 

Change the Look. It’s time to change the way you and your campaign are presented. Lose the suit and visit people in their homes and places of work. Hold sessions where you listen to people and capture audio and video of them discussing their real world problems. People talk about problems, not issues. So, focus on the problems and offer your solutions. Avoid Washington-speak (legislation, bills, insider talk) in favor of Main Street common sense. And, tell your communications and media teams to up the vibe and change the look. Voters are on to you when you do the standard walk and talk through a business, school, or factory. Try a new look and have business owners, constituents, family members, and workers jobs the workers do in the machine shops, small businesses, and factories you visit. Have the employee show you what they do and then try to do it. This changes the visual narrative so it’s more personal and engaging. 

Understand the Changing Environment and Recalibrate Now.The Trump phenomenon exists because Washington politicians promise change, but don’t deliver. Your job is to deliver. In the past two cycles it was easy to say, “Washington’s broken” but in 2016, you need to demonstrate that you’ll rip up the rotten roots and begin anew. To get on the reformist wave, advance clear-cut reforms that change the way Washington works. The best way to do this is to highlight reforms that you have previously advanced, or discuss reforms that are working in your state. You can also feature stories of reformers who have changed things for the better. This gives people hope, and it shows you offering a positive future vision. >

Special Note : Consider visuals that communicate change and reform. Feature candidates working on an old engine and note how sometimes you have to do a complete overhaul to get things working. Consider featuring a candidate in a field ripping up a rotten tree stump so the field can be cleared and planting can be done. Have a constituent or citizen talking about the candidate cleaning up the mess in Washington as the candidate participates in a street cleaning & beautification campaign. Post a reform tab on your website and feature stories of real world reforms that can change Washington. Be sure to feature reformers in your videos, on your You Tube channel, and in social media. Promote tweets that push reforms or condemn Washington’s dysfunction. The time to build the case against Washington (even if you are part of it) is now, not in the final three months of the election. Finally, call on citizens to post their own reform recommendations and then select the best of the lot. This “bottom up” method allows you to say that the reforms are from regular citizens. Post the best ideas, promote discussions on your social platforms, and discuss them on your You Tube channel, talk radio, podcasts, and TV appearances. 

Special Note : Always bring the campaign back home to real people and their daily struggle. The Trump show may be going on, but back home our families are in a fight for their livelihoods. Keep your narrative on them, not the national scene. Tell stories of citizens overcoming obstacles and succeeding. Sell optimism. Promote hope. Story-based messaging allows you to plough new ground and own the field. 

Trump Can Hit the Right Chord. We may not like it, but Trump has connected with voters on issues like trade with China and America’s broken borders. When Trump was criticized on building a wall to stop immigration, he noted how Israel successfully built walls that were cost effective and did the job. Trump will continue to advance those messages, but you don’t have to go along with his more extreme positioning. Instead, you should stake out turf in the same issue zone and offer your own ideas. Target China on industrial espionage. Hit China on its cyber war against the U.S. government. Focus on China breaking existing trade rules and using Chinese government intervention to create an unfair advantage. On immigration, select areas where reform can be done and should be done. One example is better tracking of those who violate their tourist visa. Governor Christie recently noted that 40% of those in our country illegally overstayed their visas. This is a highly correctable matter and a reform that should be promoted. Select some commonsense and doable reforms. 

Trump and Women. Houston, we have a problem: Donald Trump has said some wacky things about women. Candidates shouldn’t go near this ground other than to say that your wife or daughter is offended by what Trump said. We do not want to reengage the “war on women” fight so isolate Trump on this issue by offering a quick condemnation of it. 

Trump Rises Because People Understand Him. Trump is saying that the Emperor has no clothes and he challenges our politically correct times. Our candidates shouldn’t miss this point. Don’t insult key voter cohorts by ignoring that America has significant problems and that Trump is offering some basic solutions. Understand the populist points Trump makes and ride that wave. 

We Can’t Afford to Depress the GOP Vote. Spending full time attacking our own nominee will ensure that the GOP vote is depressed. That will only serve to topple GOP candidates at every level. Maintain the right amount of independence, but avoid piling on the nominee. 

Covering the Trump Bet. Conventional wisdom has counted Trump out on several occasions. But, Trump continues to riseand the criticisms seem to make him stronger. Trump has been gaining Democrat adherents and he’s solidifying GOP cohorts who feel they’ve been totally ignored by the Washington Ruling Class. If the environment aligns properly, Trump could win. It’s not a bet most would place now, but it could happen. That’s why it’s important for our candidates torun their own races, limit the Trump criticisms (other than obvious free kicks), and grab onto the best elements of the anti-Washington populist agenda. This memo is written under the assumption that Donald Trump wins the nomination. We don’t have a crystal ball, but in 1940, few were predicting that an Indiana businessman with New York connections would win the Republican nomination for President of the United States.

edited 3rd Dec '15 4:39:52 AM by carbon-mantis

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#105789: Dec 3rd 2015 at 4:55:00 AM

I've seen nothing to indicate that Farook was on the terrorism watchlist. He did have a number of legally-obtained firearms, but also a cache of pipe bomb style explosives. Are we going to see a new entry on the "crazy people to watch out for" list: a Muslim-American Right-Wing Militia Fanatic? This guy is a study in contradictions.

edited 3rd Dec '15 4:55:17 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#105790: Dec 3rd 2015 at 4:57:34 AM

It's interesting that the memo assumes at all candidates are men.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#105791: Dec 3rd 2015 at 5:06:27 AM

[up][up] Do we even know if he's Muslim, all we know is an Arabic name, he could have become an atheist, or be an Arab Christian. All we really know now is the name.

[up] It's the GOP, what do you expect.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#105792: Dec 3rd 2015 at 5:33:40 AM

CNN: [1]

In an online profile, he described himself as a "Muslim Male living in USA/California/riverside. Religious but modern family of 4, with 2 girls and 2 boys."

It just occurred to me that the math there is wonky, unless he is not including himself and his wife/SO in the "family of 4".

edited 3rd Dec '15 5:36:09 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#105793: Dec 3rd 2015 at 5:36:30 AM

Sure CNN have the right profile? It is CNN after all...

For numbers, probably meant "family of four children".

edited 3rd Dec '15 5:37:20 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#105794: Dec 3rd 2015 at 5:40:47 AM

And those four children were apparently not enough to deter them from a homicidal rampage. I have a feeling that this is going to come down to some kind of insanity on their part rather than a connection to terrorism, but obviously the FBI will have to dig through all the evidence and leads before we know.

I'm not necessarily giving CNN the benefit of the doubt here, but how many Syed Farooks are likely to live in that area?

edited 3rd Dec '15 5:42:31 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#105795: Dec 3rd 2015 at 5:42:41 AM

[up] From what I've heard the Daily Beast included the wrong Facebook profile in their reporting, so there are at least two.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#105796: Dec 3rd 2015 at 5:44:38 AM

Well, there doesn't seem to be any doubt that they have the right one, in this case, or the article would have printed a correction. The man's brother-in-law has been contacted by the media as well.

Farook's family had tried to reach him all day Wednesday but could not. Hussam Ayloush, the head of the Southern California chapter of the Council of American Relations, said Farook and his wife had dropped off their 6-month-old girl with her grandmother and claimed they were going to a doctor's appointment before the massacre.

"Here, watch my kids, I've got to go murder some people." What the fuck?!

edited 3rd Dec '15 5:44:49 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#105797: Dec 3rd 2015 at 5:46:59 AM

Well at least they didn't take the kid with them.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#105798: Dec 3rd 2015 at 6:17:51 AM

I take it no motives are officialy known yet?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#105799: Dec 3rd 2015 at 6:21:13 AM

Nope, we have no official report of a motive, other than that the primary shooter was in attendance at the holiday party and stormed out after some sort of argument, then returned with his wife and massacred people there.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#105800: Dec 3rd 2015 at 6:38:30 AM

In a way that suggested serious preparation and planning. Despite having a six-month-old daughter.

Even by mass shooting standards, this was fucking weird, and it'd be real interesting to find out what their motives were, if we ever do.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Total posts: 417,856
Top