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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#105176: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:13:35 PM

[up]

Case in point, the reporter who basically got forced into retirement after saying Israel "should get out of Palestine". Expressing a personal opinion, but basically got blackballed for it.

edited 20th Nov '15 1:28:32 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#105177: Nov 20th 2015 at 2:50:30 PM

Why the fuck is he considered a hero? Spying on an ally and doing so poorly enough to get busted for it?

1. While in prison Pollard began spinning the reason for why spied on the US as having a greater duty to the Jewish people than to the US, fueled by anger over America having known about concentration camps long before it did anything about it and having refused to take in Jewish refugees before WWII.

2. Never underestimate the siege mentality and Moral Myopia/Protagonist-Centered Morality on the part of Israel. If you're not backing Israel up every second of every day, then you're not really on their side as far as many of them are concerned. Of course, if their own actions injure you, that's just not the same...

edited 20th Nov '15 2:51:08 PM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#105178: Nov 20th 2015 at 7:28:45 PM

It would be one thing if he was an Israeli patriot who infiltrated the CIA, I would still say the US should keep his ass locked up, but I would understand why the Israeli's would consider him a hero. But this dude apparently had to be paid a shit ton to work for the Israeli's.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#105179: Nov 20th 2015 at 10:32:41 PM

Times have changed, though, if we're trying to prevent a criminal from leaving the country and renouncing citizenship. We've taken the fact that exile is now illegal under international law to heart.

I wonder if Mossad will extract him.

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#105180: Nov 20th 2015 at 11:01:13 PM

We need a lawless transnational space colony just so we can exile people there. That or just an island somewhere. Think Australia would give themselves to the EU?

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#105181: Nov 21st 2015 at 6:01:18 AM

On the topic of the Syrian refugees, Rochester's Catholic Family Center has an interesting statistic to cite - namely, that out of ~750,000 refugees taken in over the past 15 years, not one has been charged with domestic terrorism, thanks largely to the 7-step, continent-spanning vetting system we've got in place.

Oh, and even they're calling "bullshit" on the proposals to deny refugees or only accept the Christian ones, which I think is pretty notable given the source.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#105182: Nov 21st 2015 at 6:03:05 AM

Not letting refugees in has absolutely nothing to do with fear of terrorism and everything to do with not wanting brown people in the country.

Oh really when?
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#105183: Nov 21st 2015 at 6:36:47 AM

[up] But would the same apply in Europe?

Keep Rolling On
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#105184: Nov 21st 2015 at 6:37:39 AM

To a certain extent it probably does.

Oh really when?
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#105185: Nov 21st 2015 at 6:50:10 AM

Exercise a bit of Hanlon's Razor there, though - don't attribute to racism something that can easily be explained by overhyped fears.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#105186: Nov 21st 2015 at 6:51:24 AM

I can't agree with that given the current state of American society and politics.

I wish I could but I just can't.

Oh really when?
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#105187: Nov 21st 2015 at 6:55:03 AM

[up][up] The two aren't mutually exclusive.

edited 21st Nov '15 6:55:09 AM by DrDougsh

rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#105188: Nov 21st 2015 at 7:18:57 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]Why not? Our neighbors across the pond have their fair share of racist assholes.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#105189: Nov 21st 2015 at 7:28:04 AM

[up] And more instances of Islamist and other forms of Terrorism over the last half-century. It's not perfect here.

edited 21st Nov '15 7:30:07 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#105190: Nov 21st 2015 at 7:47:21 AM

[up][up] Europe has always been more openminded in regards to race,or really anything,than this country. Just compare how long it took most European nations to abolish slavery, and compare it to how long it took the US to get rid of it. Their is also the fact that their was apparently no segregation in Europe, and you would often take in black intellectuals who fled from the US. Plus we all know you guys aren't racist, your xenophobictongue

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#105191: Nov 21st 2015 at 8:12:14 AM

Regarding Pollard, he spent 30 years in prison. That's usually enough for someone to be considered to have paid their due.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#105192: Nov 21st 2015 at 8:32:07 AM

The problem with Hanlon's Razor here is that, the malicious explanation better fits the existing data set than the stupid explanation.

That's the thing about the razors: they're there for making observations where all else is equal. But that's not the case here.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#105193: Nov 21st 2015 at 8:43:48 AM

[up][up] Considering how in much of history punishment for a spy consisted of being executed on the spot or tortured and then executed, Pollard and his supporters have absolutely nothing to complain about here, and should be pretty damn grateful, in fact. Especially considering espionage and treason are still capital offenses under the Federal Code.

Had Pollard done what he did for any other country than Israel, there's a decent chance that he would have been executed sometime in the 90s after his appeals ran out instead of having an entire country and lobbying group arguing for his release and then trying to integrate him into society in a comfy manner complete with being lauded and having work and lodging arranged for him when he did get released.

edited 21st Nov '15 9:05:21 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#105194: Nov 21st 2015 at 9:00:02 AM

@Jack

Taking slavery as an indicator of openness regarding race and absence of xenophobia isn't the best metric. Aside from the various Sibling Rivalry-level snark between various European nations, you've got overt xenophobia represented in a few political parties with said xenophobia as its main plank.

And on a completely unrelated note, I've wanted to say this for a while but never found occasion to - it's "definitely", not "defiantly" tongue

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#105195: Nov 21st 2015 at 9:06:09 AM

Not letting refugees in has absolutely nothing to do with fear of terrorism and everything to do with not wanting brown people in the country.

In this case, those two are the same thing. The people objecting to the refugees are absolutely afraid of letting terrorists into the country. But they're so afraid of letting terrorists in because they automatically associate brown-skinned Muslims with terrorism.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#105196: Nov 21st 2015 at 9:17:44 AM

[up][up]

The GOP is an openly xenophobic party; in all honesty little separates the likes of the GOP from, say, the Danske Folkeparti.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#105197: Nov 21st 2015 at 9:18:16 AM

[up][up]You deceive yourself. They've been looking for ways to keep brown-skinned people out of the country because of racism, and terrorism gives them the excuse they wanted.

edited 21st Nov '15 9:18:34 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#105198: Nov 21st 2015 at 9:21:42 AM

[up] You'll find, in certain parts of Europe, "brown-skinned" people involve those the US would call "white", such as Poles. Or even those in another part of the same country.

edited 21st Nov '15 9:22:00 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#105199: Nov 21st 2015 at 9:26:57 AM

I don't think Pollard would have been executed if he had been spying for, say, the Cubans or something. Post-Rosenburg, the death penalty for spies doesn't really seem to stick, especially when it's not over something as critical as the atomic bomb.

The dumb thing is that yeah, he was probably motivated by money. Most people who are "turned" are motivated by material concerns, not out of some sense of ethnic or idealistic solidarity.

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#105200: Nov 21st 2015 at 9:30:21 AM

So...who's this Pollard and what did he do?


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