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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Cid El Cid Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: Hiding
El Cid
#104776: Nov 11th 2015 at 5:48:03 PM

[up]Corruption.

Mexico has a strong economy. It's far from the best but it's good enough to help improve the lives of a good part of the 60 million Mexicans living in extreme povertynote 

I mean, time and again the government and several experts have mentioned how the country is more than capable of providing basic services for the most marginalized zones, how most states can afford to rise the minimum wage from $80 pesos to $200 and improve the infrastructure of the states most with the highest number of emigrants (Chiapas, Oaxaca, Guerrero, Chihuahua, etc).

However, nothing is ever done because the government a) is too corrupt, b) is afraid of an economic crash like we had in the 90's, c) thinks that the people leaving aren't worth keeping.

And this isn't just campaign promises. The plans to rise the wages have been sitting in the senate for three years now but they never advance because "there's not enough money".

I mean, it's no secret that Mexico benefits from the migrants crossing to the US. Which is why we treat our immigrants worse than the US treats hers.

That's why down here we joke about the horrible things that would happen if Trump was elected: our government would actually have to take care of its people. [lol]

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#104777: Nov 11th 2015 at 5:56:00 PM

I knew there was a "it's the yanks problem now" attitude within the Mexican government, but I didn't know it was that bad.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#104778: Nov 11th 2015 at 7:32:19 PM

I wonder if the US will eventually go "wait a second... we've got a northern border to!" and start following the Mexican model of "Keep going north and you'll get no trouble", just shove everyone into Canada, it's bigger then the US anyway.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#104779: Nov 11th 2015 at 7:52:11 PM

Actually, Canada's just a second, winter-themed America.

edited 11th Nov '15 7:54:10 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104780: Nov 12th 2015 at 7:42:21 AM

Too much influence of the drug cartels in the northern areas of mexico for the government to not be mired by corruption there

This partially because the U.S is THE best drug market in the world

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104781: Nov 12th 2015 at 7:48:08 AM

Indeed. If we could cut off the flow of drug money and guns to Mexico, maybe their government wouldn't be outspent by the cartels.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104782: Nov 12th 2015 at 7:56:51 AM

Well as said by the actual mexican dude who knows much more about mexico than I do, Mexico is not so much "outspent" by the cartels, it is just corrupt as fuck because of the cartels.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104783: Nov 12th 2015 at 8:00:35 AM

Let's look at it this way. You're a government official, making some not-too-spectacular amount of money. You are approached by a guy who offers you a suitcase containing your entire annual salary in return for looking the other way when some cartel dudes pull shenanigans. In case you refuse the offer, this fellow drops some candid photos of your wife and kids on your desk.

Now multiply this by the entire country.

edited 12th Nov '15 8:01:01 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104784: Nov 12th 2015 at 8:04:07 AM

At this point, it is more like the thing is so mired that the officials in place are actually part of the cartel, rather than being regular joes who got into the office with bright eyes and a desire to change stuff for good.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#104785: Nov 12th 2015 at 1:30:27 PM

Agreed with Aszur on this one - while it might be possible, the question is whether it's feasible. And when the various cartels have control over certain areas, I see the (admittedly poor) logic in trying to "starve them out", so to speak.

And that said, the only reason what's going on in Mexico hasn't been branded a Civil War is because the side fighting the government - the cartels - don't want to take over. They just want to run their operations without those pesky "officials" getting in the way of their trafficking and the joys that come with it.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#104786: Nov 12th 2015 at 1:42:22 PM

Am I wrong in saying this wouldnt be as bad if Nixon hadn't declared the 'War on Drugs'?

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104787: Nov 12th 2015 at 1:43:05 PM

Did Nixon do anything right?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#104788: Nov 12th 2015 at 1:48:31 PM

[up]

He established the EPA after a Lake Erie tributary caught fire, so there's that, at least. Besides which, the majority of the country (namely those not involved with the Hippie movement) was pretty staunchly against it, not helped by the Manson Family murders coming from that same sub-group (or so popular belief held, anyway).

edited 12th Nov '15 1:59:38 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#104789: Nov 12th 2015 at 1:59:18 PM

Fun times in Cleveland again...

(that's where the river caught fire)

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#104790: Nov 12th 2015 at 2:07:36 PM

[up][up] And Nixon wanted to establish something like Obamacare — except the Democrats shot that down, wanting better.

Keep Rolling On
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#104791: Nov 12th 2015 at 2:35:31 PM

You guys didn't answer my question

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104792: Nov 12th 2015 at 2:49:43 PM

By implication, indirectly I did.

Short version: yes.

Longer version: The systematic "War on Drugs" that the United States has led was mostly based on taking guns and shooting them somewhere. Even now millions of dollars go to Colombian army to combat drug lords and it is seldom used on effective education programs. Instead things like D.A.R.E are pushed to the front

Basically you cannot stop a market from providing as long as there is a demand of it, but you can educate people to be a lot more careful on their consumption, or know how to avoid it. The entire demonization and gun based reprisal of drug traffic ends up leaving holes in the cartels which sparks more violence.

That is to say, if you kill/capture a drug lord, you are not going to stop the cartel: you are either going to make the neighboring cartel invade the previous cartel's turf to expand, or you are going to see the second in commands of the one you killed/captured war with each other, or you will see both of these happening at the same time. And this keeps happening and happening and happening in ways that require guns and violence because there is a demand on the market (which is unstoppable) and there is a repression on the flow of the market.

Instead of legislating and trying to regulate the market as a government could, the U.S just hopes to shoot at it and kill it, but this market is too huge a monster to be stopped by bullets. They are targeting the wrong people with the wrong thing, and this has been so more noticeable since the Nixon Administration (but actually extends further back: Remember the prohibition? And how that went?)

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
FalseDichotomy from Your mind :o Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#104793: Nov 12th 2015 at 3:09:26 PM

On the whole "things-that-Nixon-didn't-fuck-up" thing, wasn't he the one that converted the USD to a fiat currency? I'm not an economist so I could be wrong (scratch that, I probably am) but isn't it the fact that our currency is no longer tied to a physical commodity the reason why our deficit isn't killing us?

edited 12th Nov '15 3:11:36 PM by FalseDichotomy

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#104794: Nov 12th 2015 at 3:11:53 PM

Not tying currency to a physical object is the single greatest invention by mankind.

Oh really when?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#104795: Nov 12th 2015 at 3:22:25 PM

[up][up]Doing that prevented the US economy from stagnating and allowed an easier flow of currency.

So no, fiat currency is way better than ballast currencies.

Nixon also worked to end the Vietnam war and established diplomatic ties with China, so it wasn't all bad.

The War on Drugs kicked hard on Reagan and Clinton's government though.

Inter arma enim silent leges
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#104796: Nov 12th 2015 at 3:50:14 PM

[up][up] What about video games, what about Porn!!

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#104797: Nov 12th 2015 at 6:33:39 PM

I may link to your post later, Aszur. That was a damn good summary of the effectiveness of the drug war. If you had thrown in something about how it incentivizes raids by law enforcement on shaky legal grounds within the states, it might be perfect for the holdout moral crusader in this country.

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#104798: Nov 12th 2015 at 8:33:08 PM

I get post-9/11, but prior to 9/11, were civilian airliners not allowed to fly above the White House or the Capitol Building in Washington DC?

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#104799: Nov 12th 2015 at 9:36:30 PM

This may be getting off-topic for the U.S. politics thread, but what do you suppose would happen if Mexico legalized the import and export of drugs (though not necessarily domestic sales)? If the drug cartels activities were legal (at least inside Mexico) would they still have reason to do all this violent shit?

Cid El Cid Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: Hiding
El Cid
#104800: Nov 12th 2015 at 9:43:38 PM

They'd probably move onto something else. After all, their goal is to make money. Selling drugs is just the fastest way to get there.

Either way, I don't think that'd be enough. There's no point in exporting something if the main consumers live in a country where those things are banned.

edited 12th Nov '15 9:50:33 PM by Cid


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