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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104326: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:57:53 AM

I'm voting for Democratic candidates that espouse progressive economic and progressive social policies, for one thing. For another, I worry about how to tell my son, who is Hispanic by birth, that he can't unquestioningly trust police officers and might be held to different standards when he gets older.

I have absolutely no right to tell any black person how they ought to feel about racially-targeted police violence.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:59:29 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#104327: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:06:28 AM

I think it's interesting that my previous "open season" comment keeps getting reframed as a personal offense rather than as a legitimate rhetorical device that is commonly used to call attention to a problem that keeps getting ignored. It's like when a feminist says she's tired of being treated like a doormat and some chucklefuck reminds her that her complaint is hyperbolic because we have birth control, Carly Fiorina and HRC.

Hyperbole are not a legitimate rhetorical device. They are bad form. They're meant to emphasize one's meaning, but, more often than not, they obscure it, and cast doubt on the speaker's honesty and/or their sanity. No, the night is not black as pitch; it's several shades lighter. No, you did not ever think that you would be waiting forever. No, you are not starving; you are hungry. Whenever I get the chance, I emphatically recommend that people abstain from using them in daily life, and this goes double for serious debate.

Plus, I can't help but picture a "Black Season/Honky Season" exchange, complete with lisping. "YOU'RE DETHHHHPICABLE!"

I think we achieved a consensus back then that BLM did the right thing disrupting Bernie's speech like that. That they gave Bernie, as well as the other Democractic candidates the opportunity to clarify his position and policies towards Blacks. That the racist Democrats deserve to be not-appeased, not-catered-to, and, I would say, that they need to be frankly and openly condemned and marginalized. Let them finish their migration to the Republican side, if they want. That the argument that Blacks should have no choice but to vote Democrat is sickeningly pernicious and perverse.

If Blacks can alienate allies simply by stating their anger, their frustration, and their need for open and clear support, then those people never had any business being their allies in the first place, and good riddance to bad rubbish.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:07:29 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#104328: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:15:54 AM

at the risk of prolonging this subject much longer, it's not the first time i've seen that expression pop up.

i don't find it much of hyperbole, just an expression. i recall the last time aprilla said this he was saying that it was "open season" on trans women, which just meant that poor treatment, both institutionalized and cultural, of that demographic is commonplace and met with either support or indifference. The same statement also applies to black people. it was honestly just an empirical observation, and i'm sure all of us have the perspicacity to understand what it means, so i'm not sure what all the hub-hub is about.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:20:13 AM by wehrmacht

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104329: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:19:46 AM

[up][up][up]I am not sure what you are replying to if I must be honest Fighteer.

But anyways on the whole subject:

I do not think however that people are saying Democrat votes or that we need to trick Trump and his supporters by making a “Galt's Gulch: Actual black people open season and free toupees and golf!” and nuke them when they inevitably run there.

Political movements are one thing, they are moved by money they are moved by economy they are moved by votes, demographics etc etc. But social movements that are instilling a sense of questioning and a sense of revolution in our ways of understanding society go a bit beyond the "let us get the right people in the supreme court", because no matter how liberal, how intelligent or how powerful a supreme court is, they will be able to do absolutely nothing if a random racist jerkass decides to murder a person in different color, demean them, or otherwise, harm them simply because of deeply instilled racist thoughts.

The revolution and difference wanted is not just political, but in thought and education in the people; who are ultimately, the perpetrators and the saviors of any social system as they are also its members.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:20:25 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104330: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:26:13 AM

Hyperbole are not a legitimate rhetorical device.

This is off-topic, but hyperbole can not only be a legitimate rhetorical device, but has been a staple of social commentary in art throughout the ages. Much of satire like that used by Steven Colbert and John Oliver is based on hyperbole that itself combines uproarious humor with a sudden sense of dread because there is a grave truth they are telling you amidst the outlandish jester routine. The same is true for understatement.

Neither device in discourse is inherently bad. Or inherently good. Either way, most of the people here, whether they're being obtuse or not, should have a modicum of understanding as to what I meant.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:36:38 AM by Aprilla

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#104331: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:38:09 AM

If you're being humorous, ple use the appropriate pothole. It feels like you weren't, though. Even in the figurative sense, the expression does not hold; one says that it is open season on this or that group when there is a social consensus to constantly attack them, if only through mockery and microagression, i.e., when they are an Acceptable Target. Black people have not been on that list for a fairly long time, at least in public.

Although given the horror stories I keep hearing about Blacks, women, and so on getting constant microagressions at the office and, depending on the workplace, being told to "not rock the boat" about it, makes me think that in some contexts there is in fact an "open season" declared, if a low-key one.

[up][up]First time I hear that one too, and I would have said almost the same; they aren't quite out of the Acceptable Target list yet, but almost. Note, say, the progress in South Park between "Mrs. Garrison" and "The Cissy".

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:38:42 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104332: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:42:21 AM

I think it's just misuse if the term then. Those familiar with hunting or fishing know open season means you can pretty much go crazy, keep what you catch, compared to normal restrictions against juveniles, endangered species, females who might be pregnant, quotas, restrictions on weapons, etc

It means hunters are let loose to kill what they they want, how they want, where they want.

While there are serious race issues today, it dies not meet that at all. Police brutality is usually brought to court, and many, if not most of those convicted are punished. The KKK and such are almost dead as far as violent acts are concerned. There are movements fighting against it and trying to protect those who are victims of racial issues.

Yes there are a ton of issues, but open season it is not.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:48:03 AM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104333: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:44:34 AM

[up][up]That's...

That's not how language works, Handle.

There's a language thread in Yack Fest. We also have the Humanities thread, and I can go into more detail about it later if I'm up to it, but there are numerous semantic, epistemological and political points you're not getting.

Yes there are a ton of issues, but open season it is not.

Bluntly speaking, that's not really for you to decide.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:46:42 AM by Aprilla

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#104334: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:46:31 AM

[up][up]You know who it's open season on? Presidential candidates, except for Sanders and Clinton. Especially Trump. It's like when they announced their campaigns they put a big "kick me" sign on their butts.

[up]Let's take it to the Semantics thread. Please educate me.

[down]Apparently that's actually still the case in the Deep South, it's just tremendously unreported.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:50:43 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104335: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:49:47 AM

And bluntly responding, it's a matter of English. Unless it degrades to the point that random people are not even investigated for murders of minorities, as it once was, it's not "open season".

Because that's what it means to those who are familiar with the term. It's a hunting term.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:50:38 AM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104336: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:50:37 AM

You are taking this. Too. Literally.

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104337: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:54:39 AM

I'm trying to help you understand why people take it the way they did. That's the only thing open season means to many. That's why it's getting labeled as hyperbole. Because it's literal meaning is what it means.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:55:26 AM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104338: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:59:03 AM

The political point is that black people are being detained, slain and left unaccounted for in homicide and suicide cases with relative impunity; a level and type of impunity resembling that of the slaying of certain animals that, you know, don't have protected rights.

I don't even agree with Trump being metaphorically identified as a clown, but I fully understand why people use that metaphor. It's not hard.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#104339: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:06:55 AM

Black man expresses feelings of being black in the US.

Mostly liberal white men proceed to explain to black man why his feelings are wrong and what he should be saying instead...

There it is m'dears.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104340: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:08:15 AM

Who did that? Specifics. Criticizing facts is not the same as telling you not to feel a certain way.

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:08:42 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#104341: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:12:05 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104342: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:13:22 AM

Okay.

I'm black. I'm finishing a degree in linguistics. I live in Arkansas, which is basically a Mecca for hunters. Sanders and Clinton, bless their hearts, will have a mountain of work to do on the front of anti-black racism because it's older than the nation itself. This is assuming one of them even makes it to the White House. Black deaths are underreported. We are more or less disenfranchised because so many black people are convicted felons who received harsher sentences than their white counterparts. Voter redistricting and gentrification are basically death knells for black professionals and those interested in the democratic process.

I appreciate a healthy debate about language and politics, and I'm glad some of you sincerely care about tackling racism through our political process but I don't need my own point explained to me.

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:14:50 AM by Aprilla

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104343: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:15:25 AM

[up] And I would ask you who, in this topic or in the Democratic institution as a whole, has challenged those statements on matters of fact. It is fair to ask the question, "What can/should be done about these problems?" It is irrational to call out your putative political and social allies as traitors for failing to offer the same solutions that you have in mind. Not that you, specifically, have done this, but it seems to be a popular sentiment.

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:21:15 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#104344: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:16:57 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah, no, that's not fair. "Policing" is a vast overstatement, no-one is telling anyone how to feel about events, and understanding inaccurate phrasing does not preclude requiring that it be amended to something more accurate.

And, to be honest, I genuinely did not understand what Aprilla meant until he clarified it.

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:17:27 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#104345: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:21:43 AM

And I would ask you who, in this topic or in the Democratic institution as a whole, has challenged those statements on matters of fact.

Nobody? to be frank i'm not sure why you are pursuing this line of questioning. nobody is being called out here.

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:22:23 AM by wehrmacht

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104346: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:22:58 AM

[up][up][up]You can't even be bothered to answer a message I sent you requesting your assistance as a mod, then you ask me an insincere question like that and thump Luminosity for basically saying what needed to be said? Really?

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:23:08 AM by Aprilla

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104347: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:25:32 AM

I am expressing my views as a contributor to this thread. I am not interested in starting a war with you, but you seem to be fighting one that doesn't exist, at least here.

My job as a moderator, however, is to maintain decorum on these forums regardless of whether the posts in question conform to my political or social beliefs. That means that loud, shouty posts directed at individuals or at posters in general will get thumped.

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:26:31 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104348: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:29:16 AM

Totally missed my point.

Another troper was shouting me down about a month ago. I sent you a message inquiring what, if anything, would be done about it. Crickets.

As for the debate here, I've already told you before that there's a difference between legitimate yet understandably harsh criticism and unwarranted antagonism. You're insisting on the latter when it's the former.

The gaslighting and sealioning are not helping, either.

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:32:03 AM by Aprilla

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#104349: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:31:48 AM

I am expressing my views as a contributor to this thread. I am not interested in starting a war with you, but you seem to be fighting one that doesn't exist, at least here.

I don't think anyone is trying to start a war, but this entire discussion started because people were dissecting Aprilla's statements and blowing a euphemism out of proportion. some of these questions might not have been disingenuous, so fair enough there, but it seems puzzling that he's being asked to consistently clarify his position over statements that he didn't even make.

edited 2nd Nov '15 11:32:46 AM by wehrmacht


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