TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104301: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:04:36 AM

I'm trying to imagine how anyone could interpret a utilitarian approach to solving systemic inequities as condoning police executions of minorities. Unless, that is, you are making an appeal to emotion instead of a reasoned argument.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:10:08 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104302: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:11:51 AM

The problem is not either being "okay with it" or not. If I wanted to ask that I would be more like "On a scale from Adolf Hitler to Galactus, how evil are you?"

The problem is the minimization or invisibilization of these issues that only when they are made personal will people pay attention to them.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#104303: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:13:12 AM

Not seeing how he did that either.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#104304: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:22:59 AM

[up][up]Is Galactus really worse than Hitler? I always thought Galactus was really more Blue And Orange than truly evil.

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104306: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:25:22 AM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104307: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:26:18 AM

The problem is the minimization or invisibilization of these issues that only when they are made personal will people pay attention to them.

Basically this. Saying "1 in every blah blah black people" is one thing when you're comfortably sitting in front of your phone or computer, but when you're at court early in the morning and you see droves of young black men in chains and orange uniforms awaiting sentencing, it hits you a lot harder. Especially when they look like you.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104308: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:26:53 AM

In no way, shape, or form are we seeking to denigrate that experience nor argue that it doesn't matter. What we are telling you is that if you piss off the people who run the system too much, you won't get the change you want. Unless you're willing to go full-out with the revolution business, the system can only be changed by the system.

And I am not trying to talk down to you. Far from it.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:30:02 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104309: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:27:55 AM

I'm not sure wiring someone's opinion off purely on the basis of their skin tone helps.

When it comes down to it, personal experience is a terribly small Sample size. Ignoring overall statistics is ignoring facts. It matters but you can't use it as a shield to what the numbers day.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:32:40 AM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#104310: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:31:16 AM

You are. Especially when you are intentionally missing his point.

He didn't say that Congress Said "Okay cops, go kill the black people." And you guys know it.

We have institutional and social racism to such a scale that we have built a culture of suppressing minority voices, especially through passive aggressive liberal channels.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104311: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:33:22 AM

Well, some elements of Congress — at least, the Republican Party in general — pretty much have come out and said that it's okay for cops to kill black people. And the only way we solve that problem is to vote in Democrats who believe that black lives matter.

Make liberals your enemies and the change you want won't happen except by violence.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:34:47 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104312: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:34:35 AM

It's like you've intentionally missed my point. And ignored fundamentals of human psychology. Here, I'll explain it (because I evidently have to).

Contemporary academic discourse on race relations is crucial to fighting racial injustice, but one thing we have learned from analyses on social psychology is that humans aren't very good at empathizing with their out-group. A long time ago, I posted a series of correlational studies on MRI scans showing noticeable changes in brain activity between advantaged and disadvantaged members of society based on a number of scenarios.

Empirical relation is also an important part of maintaining civility. When you experience or witness brutality perpetrated both by and upon your fellow citizens, it should elicit a neurochemical response along the lines of "that's not good". Only clinical sociopaths have a problem doing this, and I'm pretty sure none of my detractors here today are sociopaths. You're just making passive-aggressive gestures with pretty language while totally missing my overarching point about how white liberals are inadvertently and sometimes intentionally obstructionist in their perspective - or lack thereof.

edited 2nd Nov '15 10:08:41 AM by Aprilla

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104313: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:36:06 AM

And you have offered no solutions to this problem, which I agree exists, other than harassing politicians into agreeing with your agenda. Which they already are, and yet that is apparently not good enough. Both major Democratic candidates have embraced BLM.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104314: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:36:46 AM

I'm not sure yelling people that they're saying something they aren't, and that they say they aren't, helps. If they are saying it, it's unintentional and you should punt out how and why instead of going "are too!"

I'm baaaaaaack
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#104315: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:37:08 AM

To which I say, who said the Democrats don't need their house cleaned?

Some of the most racist and classist people I have known have been Liberal Democrats. They are just condescending instead of threatening.

Their ability to suppress and redirect minority voices are just as tangible as the right.

Telling the black man to have a cookie and go sit in the corner while the white man saves the day is just as hostile as whipping the black man in the corner.

The difference is the liberal side refuses to see their actions as wrong because by god they have him a cookie! See! They aren't as bad as the whip masters!

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104316: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:38:08 AM

I've offered solutions numerous times. Numerous times. Don't even pin it on me when I've provided several walls of text on the issue. The Race thread and my posting history are just a click away.

other than harassing politicians into agreeing with your agenda. Which they already are, and yet that is apparently not good enough. Both major Democratic candidates have embraced BLM.

Bullshit. I never argued otherwise and you know that. Sanders relented and posted a racial justice agenda hours after the incident at Seattle, and plenty of black people have applauded him for that, so don't even pull that with me.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:39:55 AM by Aprilla

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104317: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:38:15 AM

[up][up]So, what do you offer as an alternative? I ask this in total seriousness. Assuming that you are right, which you probably are.

[up] Tell ya what. Point me at a few of those posts that offer a summary of your views and I'll read them. I'm not going to comb through the whole thread.

Edit: In response to your edit, then what are you arguing about?

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:41:53 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104318: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:40:40 AM

If statistical numbers was what it took to make changes, then so many programs would be instituted instead of what there is now. We all know, however, this is not the case. Just as an example: Abstinence only.

It did not particularly take a full on revolution, or nationwide referendum for the supreme court to vote in favor of same sex marriage. So it is not just hard numbers that's gunna do it.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#104319: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:43:03 AM

Shut up and listen to minority voices even if they make you uncomfortable. And if you don't want or are not able to be part of their solution, at least have the decency to stay out of their way instead of adding to the problem.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104320: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:44:12 AM

[up]Can you point to any post in this thread that exemplifies your concern? As in, which of us has said anything to indicate that we would impede your movement?

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:44:50 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#104321: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:46:18 AM

As in, which of us has said anything to indicate that we would impede your movement?

I think movements would appreciate not having to sign up forms saying "Here, I didn't attack you personally with that, can you calm down now?" every time they say anything.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104322: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:49:06 AM

I think we are all at fault for making rhetorical statements that denigrate each others' positions. Minority groups have a reason to be upset that they are being asked to maintain civility whilst their people are being killed and imprisoned. Yet what other option do we have? I'm not going to cheer on a movement that tears down people who could be its allies over failing to be progressive enough. On the flip side of the political aisle, that's how we got the Tea Party.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:50:04 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104323: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:49:33 AM

[up][up]For real. That crap is getting old.

[up]I originally had much more typed up, but to be brief for a moment, you're not being "torn down". That's the problem. Harsh yet ultimately constructive criticism from black people keeps getting misread as abject condemnation.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:51:19 AM by Aprilla

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#104324: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:52:28 AM

i'm not sure at what point anyone implied that minorities should seek extremist solutions to their problems. if anything, i think it is doing a disservice to minorities to assume that they wouldn't already be pursuing optimal courses to raise awareness and work with the people in the system who are willing to listen.

to be quite honest i'm a little bit confused at how we got to this point.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:55:44 AM by wehrmacht

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104325: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:54:50 AM

Sometimes they may not ask for cheers, they ask for understanding.

I think anyone would rationally prefer not to be having to steal a spot from a good politician out of fear from a nebulous system. That they are driven to this point begs the question "Why are they doing this?" which can be seen in two ways:

  • Why are they doing this!?!? As in. Can't they see he is trying to HELP!? My goodness, these people are blocking themselves!!!

  • Why are they doing this? It is interesting that they would choose to take this specific moment and this specific audience to reach out for their message. How desperate must one be to try and do this? And what caused this desperation?

One of the previous two kinda shuts down all dialogue and already has a convenient little person to blame here. The second instigates a few more questions that need an answer.

So. Which one do you pick?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Total posts: 417,856
Top