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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104276: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:59:27 PM

What he said. Was trying to think of a good way to respond to the open season comment but I'm still salty about the Mets game.

It's bad but it's not that bad, and it's certainly better than it has been before. There's a ways to go but if we were going to label any era as "open season", There's no way in hell it'd be today. Police are being held increasingly accountable, and body cameras are becoming more commonplace. They need to keep pushing but progress is being made.

Priority #1 should probably be making sure Trump isn't allowed near the white house though.

I'm baaaaaaack
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104277: Nov 1st 2015 at 10:01:37 PM

[up][up]No shit. I'm not sure why you made the mental leap from "black people get killed a lot" to "fire all cops" from my previous post. The point behind my comment was that we have a serious problem with how black people are treated in this country, and that problem has a body count to it. Don't take it so literally. Again, I've covered all of this in excruciating detail in the Race thread and elsewhere. Also:

The problem is that Sanders is rather vocal in considering racial inequality to be based in economic inequality and wanting to solve the latter first.

This is a valid strategy, but where I take issue is this notion among Democrats that the economic inequalities are the root cause of the racism when much of our understanding of social science indicates that institutional racism transcends economic boundaries. Encouraging black-owned businesses and curbing redlining and gentrification won't mean much if we don't address and counter long-term diversity issues. By long-term, I mean not treating diversity as some sort of check box but as an ongoing social dynamic that has to be met with acknowledgement and acceptance of the fact that our judiciary, legislative and media bodies are lacking in perspectives on marginalized people.

I'm not demanding a perfect solution, and I don't expect Clinton or Sanders to tackle these issues in 4-8 years, but it's been put on the backburner long enough.

EDIT: The poverty rate for black Americans has upticked from 26.1 percent to 28 percent between 2005 and 2014, and the number of fatalities involving black Americans has also risen by about two percent, so yes, it has gotten worse in some ways. Overall better than, say, 1912 and 1959, which saw some of the worst firebombings of black businesses and churches, but still deeply problematic.

Also note that black deaths have risen slightly not just for black civilians, but for black law enforcement officers as well. That number is estimated to be higher based on recent reports that FBI criminal data is being under-cataloged.

Let's not buy into the rhetoric without stopping to think.

I've "stopped" to think about this issue pretty much everyday of my life partly because my life depends on it. Thanks, I'm good.

Reform has to come from the top down, with national, state, and local governments who are invested in cleaning up their police forces.

Half true. You're underestimating the power of state and local election results. Some of the worst states to be black in are also southern states with very influential local election results and tight clusters of hardline constituencies that are borderline WASP gerontocracies.

edited 1st Nov '15 10:18:33 PM by Aprilla

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104278: Nov 1st 2015 at 10:21:35 PM

"The poverty rate for black Americans has upticked from 26.1 percent to 28 percent between 2005 and 2014,"

The national poverty rate in 2005 was 13.3%. 2014, it was 14.8% that's a .4% difference from the average. Given African Americans are, in general, lower income, I'm kind of surprised it wasn't more. A global economic crises will do that.

Murder rate by itself says...something. Given the murder rate is declining on average, black deaths going up is bad. But what are we going to pin that on? It's not all police.

Okay, off topic, did something happen to the forum software? My text is almost a full second behind my typing on here.

edited 1st Nov '15 10:27:52 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104279: Nov 1st 2015 at 10:25:19 PM

It probably is higher due to under-reporting.

It's not all police.

Huh? I didn't say it was all on them?

Keep in mind that there are a multitude of factors involving the deaths of black people. Lack of access to healthcare, poor education facilities, malnutrition and sub-par city services contribute to things like Type 2 diabetes and coronary heart disease among African Americans note .

edited 1st Nov '15 10:32:55 PM by Aprilla

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#104280: Nov 1st 2015 at 10:31:13 PM

Shootings by cops aren't part of the murder rate statistic. In fact, they're almost never part of any statistic because unfortunately they aren't tracked and that's horrible.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104281: Nov 1st 2015 at 10:32:44 PM

I didn't mean to say you did. I'm just up at 1:30 in the morning because I can't sleep and now I can't even communicate properly :P

edited 1st Nov '15 10:33:24 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104282: Nov 1st 2015 at 10:40:15 PM

[up][up]A lot of Americans seem to think there's some kind of magical robot that gathers this information. Human beings have to collate and report the data, which means nothing if that data is not reported. And there are several nefarious reasons (and a few competence-related reasons) why law enforcement agencies and even academic institutions do not report the totality of crime data.

Look, guys. I'm not interested in a Molotov-cocktail-throwing method of social justice, but the admonishments coming from white liberal communities are grating chiefly because those admonishments come from a rather sophomoric sentiment that civil rights reform is not a dirty practice that involves harsh words, hurt feelings and calling attention to laws and policies that don't work.

I've had Phil Ochs' "I'm a Liberal" stuck in my head for that reason.

edited 2nd Nov '15 4:10:32 PM by Aprilla

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#104283: Nov 2nd 2015 at 1:32:05 AM

I think part of the disconnect comes from the fact that the liberal white community due to being more middle/upper class tends to normally run into people fighting for social justice who are themselves younge, wealthy, liberal, white, men, and those guys occasionally do want to go for Molotov-cocktail throwing.

@Fight this is a guess but the people posting on Facebook saying you should be passively difficult with cops while shouting your right, by any chance were they commonly younge, white, liberal, men who are incredibly unlikely to actually end up in such situations?

I'm just thinking about how many of us here have said how we'd like the FBI to crack down on the Oath Keepers, but the southern troopers who'd be in the middle of such a shootout were like "fuck no, I'll get caught in the crossfire".

edited 2nd Nov '15 1:35:44 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#104284: Nov 2nd 2015 at 2:09:31 AM

The reason that it seems like "open season" now is that the bullshit that's been a fact of life since, oh, the first Africans were shipped over in chains is now breaking out into public knowledge.

It's always been open season in these communities, people are just now looking into it and calling bullshit on a large scale.

@Fighteer: I have to note that it seems unlikely, according to the people who live down there, that groups like the Oath Keepers will come out in favor of defending blacks.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#104286: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:05:52 AM

Trump's been hammering away at that, since Singer is apparently a fan of immigration reform.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#104287: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:09:54 AM

>there is open season for black people

Yes. Yes it is.

Going #Not All Cops isn't going to change that.

Why, why do people still do this? We condemn the #Not All Men logic, yet continuously use it for other things? #Not All X arguments are always meaningless.

No one ever actually says "all X is Y", even Trump has said "some, I assume, are good people". Defending anything with #Not All X is absolutely meaningless, because it's just assumed naturally by all sane and some insane people.

Not all cops, okay. So flippin-trippin-foul-tippin what?

I'm honestly tired of #Not All X. #Not All Men, #Not All Cops, #Not All Tumblr, etc etc etc. It's a pointless dead end argument used only to shut down disclourse.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#104288: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:18:26 AM

Not All Cops/Men/Democrats/whatever makes about as much sense as saying Not All Dogs Deficate on the Floor.

True. Not all dogs will poop on the rug, but that particular dog did so clean their shit up before it contaminates the whole house.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#104289: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:31:35 AM

in the context of it being applied as a response to Black Lives Matter I think it shows a pretty big lack of understanding of the black community's unique and honestly unfortunate position.

the root of it is that people think being for something means you are for something to the exclusion or devaluing of everything/everyone else. i'm also not really sure why it's expected that one movement should accommodate or be about every issue ever.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#104290: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:36:30 AM

It is willful.

To acknowledge the problem in full is to also accept personal responsibility in the solution and many people, especially white people regardless of political leanings, don't want to do that.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104291: Nov 2nd 2015 at 7:05:06 AM

I am never going to say #NotAllCops or #AllLivesMatter. Those are dodges. I am going to say that if you want to reform police, you have to work with the ones that are good, not against them.

To do otherwise is to give weight to the criticisms of BLM on the right. And yes, I am white and male and am the beneficiary of privilege. I can't escape that.

Edit: The solutions involve what's going on now: calling out bad cops with video evidence, holding protests, influencing politicians that are in a position to make a difference, educating people on their legal rights. Turning this into a war of blacks vs. cops won't solve anything.

edited 2nd Nov '15 7:21:51 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104292: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:11:49 AM

[up]Numerous racial justice groups including BLM are already doing the positive things you keep bringing up. BLM advocates have held numerous conferences with law enforcement on mostly amicable terms. Even during the Baltimore and Ferguson protests, you could see cops passing out water to protestors, protestors passing out snacks to cops and both groups working in shifts to protect businesses from looters. That story doesn't get told enough. And yeah, I can't help but notice the ones screaming "fire all cops" tend to be the white hipster kids who aren't exactly on the front lines, so to speak.

I recall speaking with a youth diversity organizer on my campus who was finishing up her sociology paper in the library. She told me that there are two things that aggravate her when it comes to racial justice: white people explaining her own tactics to her like it's the first time she's had to think about it and people in general assuming that she wants to blow up the nearest police station.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:12:57 AM by Aprilla

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#104293: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:17:03 AM

Wasn't sure the right thread to post this, but since this thread is currently on it, I think it's worth mentioning that tons of police unions are calling for boycotts of Quentin Tarantino's films because he attended a rally against police brutality.

So, it's obviously not all cops, but the (I'm assuming) non bad cops are really committed to supporting the bad ones.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:17:57 AM by Hodor2

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104294: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:22:55 AM

[up] Unions are kinda crazy.

[up][up] Sociologists are lazy and silly! As a psychologist, I denounce them! Rabble rabble! Also I would beg to differ than my armchair general-ing has not been effective, I will have you know I have won many a videogame being an armchair general!

That said, I do not think that the problem is something that can be solved overnight. The education of police officers needs to change. And at the same time the current cases of racism within the Police Departments need to be cracked down on hard to bring a sudden stop to the cases that bring risk to the lives of both Officers and People...but this will not bring a stop to the underlying motivations and other assumptions, that can only be changed with education and time.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#104295: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:28:00 AM

"Open season on black people" is a bit of an overstatement.

Black people are about four times as likely to die in an arrest related homicide as a white person. But that's still, what, 4x .01% of the population or something? Yeah it's a fundamental inequity. I mean, it's a shit ton more lethal than shark attacks and vending machines. It's something to talk about as a serious issue. But "open season?" That's hyperbole that doesn't do anyone any favors.

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#104296: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:31:57 AM

Said by the white man...

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#104297: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:33:14 AM

Math, unlike white people, is color blind.

But, I mean, part of this is just my own views as a utilitarian. What's worse: 100 people dying, or 25 people dying in a way that's visibly unjust? I'd say the former. Some people will say the latter. That's why I'm not making a "it's unimportant" argument, because that's subjective. I'm just addressing whether the language used to convey the issue is factually accurate.

If I were to make a comparison, it's more like the justice system is a serial killer who targets black targets four times as often as white targets. Wait, that makes no sense, why do I suck at analogies?

In all seriousness, I think the Black Lives Matter movement uses police shootings as opposed to, say, inequity in incarceration rates, because death has an emotional pull that incarceration (which I would say is a more prevalent issue) doesn't. But both objectively ruin people's lives.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:37:36 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104298: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:38:03 AM

I think it's interesting that my previous "open season" comment keeps getting reframed as a personal offense rather than as a legitimate rhetorical device that is commonly used to call attention to a problem that keeps getting ignored. It's like when a feminist says she's tired of being treated like a doormat and some chucklefuck reminds her that her complaint is hyperbolic because we have birth control, Carly Fiorina and HRC.

It also says a lot about the people who keep complaining because they have the luxury of interpreting it as an exaggeration, even if it is on a purely statistical level.

No one police officer or police department has literally said that black people are going to be hunted like deer. I shouldn't have to explain that, but unfortunately I do.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:45:31 AM by Aprilla

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#104299: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:38:31 AM

[up][up] If this utalitarian description made you the victim instead of someone else, would you be ok with this?

SPOILER ALERT: I am willing to bet you would not be ok with this.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:38:57 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#104300: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:02:18 AM

Tomu didn't actually say he was okay with it.

edited 2nd Nov '15 9:12:11 AM by LSBK


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