TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#104251: Nov 1st 2015 at 4:12:32 PM

[up]X3 I already mentioned several key policy areas where there is serious difference between the Republicans and Democrats "Ombamcare, welfare, reproductive rights, minority rights, and workers rights."

[up] Sanders was targeted due to his silence due to him being focuses on economic issues, he responded and I think he's been left to it since then. And yes he's after racist voters, everyone running for election in the US is, but he's targeting them by talking about other issues then race ones, and there obviously however are problems with that approach.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#104252: Nov 1st 2015 at 4:18:12 PM

Yeah. It's something true of all of the Democratic candidates (probably not a coincidence that all of them are white). I think that's why I wanted Biden to run, despite knowing his iffy record on racial issues.

Because he'd be the only candidate who wouldn't have as an implicit (or explicit) selling point of "vote for me if you hated how much Obama talked about race".

edited 1st Nov '15 4:22:46 PM by Hodor2

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#104253: Nov 1st 2015 at 4:33:07 PM

I'm pretty sure that Clinton and the other democratic candidates weren't running on that, Hodor. In fact I'm wondering if you were paying attention if you think Clinton's ever said anything like that. If anything, Democrats are more willing in general to tackle race issues than Republicans in ways that don't appeal to the welfare queen myth. Especially since Clinton's response to BLM was to invite a person to come talk to her and televise/put it on youtube.

edited 1st Nov '15 4:33:56 PM by AceofSpades

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#104254: Nov 1st 2015 at 4:35:10 PM

IMO, the major political parties have become so polarized and so dead-set against each other, there seem to be no moderates anymore, and no room for compromise. Whenever the balance of power shifts from one party to the other, they spend the next year or so trying to undo everything the previous administration did.
While this isn't untrue, the mistake you're making is blaming both parties for it. It's not political bias to say that the Republican party has been driving to the right since the end of the Bush administration at least; there used to be moderates on both sides of the aisle, but the Republican party has purged itself of moderate members by primarying them out with Tea Party candidates instead. There are a fair number of now-Democrats who used to be moderate Republicansnote , and vanishingly few of the reverse. There have been a handful of times when the Republican establishment has had to work together with the Democrats in order to control their own Tea Party fringe.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with voting based on individual candidates rather than taking the party line. In fact, I'd encourage it (with the caveat that people of a given party are more likely to vote the same way as other members of that party on most issues). But looking at one party blatantly causing the problem and then deciding to blame "the system" for it is something else entirely.

edited 1st Nov '15 4:36:44 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#104255: Nov 1st 2015 at 4:51:53 PM

I'm in the middle of playing D&D right now, so I can't give the token Cult of Centrism condemnation crap right now in full, so wait for Fighteer to make an appearance. But basically, whenever you see pundits on TV talking about a theoretical centrist politician that would be oh-so-grand the actual policy positions they hold ARE THE POSITIONS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#104256: Nov 1st 2015 at 5:45:51 PM

@Ace of Spades- Well, I was glad to see Clinton doing that. But I don't forget that her camp started Birtherism and I wouldn't be surprised if she goes anti-Obama if she gets the nomination.

And while Sanders actually has decent positions on race, like Clinton, he's totally courting the votes of the (racist) white voters that Obama didn't get.

Jimm Webb has iffy racial positions (although he's a DINO, so that's kind of a moot point).

Martin O'Malley oversaw lots of race-based arrests as Mayor of Baltimore.

Not sure about Chaffee's views on race, but he's Lincoln Chaffee and no one cares about him.

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104257: Nov 1st 2015 at 5:48:22 PM

Sanders also kind of positions himself generally as appealing to working class (read white) voters. I mean I'm not saying that he's racist (and in fact he supports what I guess I'd call "racial justice" policies, but it's not a coincidence that Black Lives Matter targeted him, and to some degree, I think he is courting the votes of voters who are racist.

I have to agree to an extent. While Democratic candidates such as Sanders have a respectable history of standing against Jim Crow segregation, I grow tired of the notion that "Democrat" is synonymous with "anti-racist", and recent events have demonstrated why this thought process doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Of course, your better bet is with the Democrats if you want policies that defend against institutional racism. However, when Sanders was interrupted by two black women during a rally, the response from a lot of white Democrats really shed light on just how racist his supporters can be.

There's also the issue of many left-leaning communities such as Portland, Oregon having an often overlooked atmosphere of racism (I like to call it "artisanal" racism) and the case of a drunken Sanders supporter assailing a Muslim woman and shouting "white power" at her.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#104258: Nov 1st 2015 at 6:07:44 PM

Hodor, you are seriously going to have to cite your sources on Clinton's camp being the one to start birtherism when that came largely from the right wing. You're literally the first I've seen claim that and it sets off my bullshit detector big time.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#104259: Nov 1st 2015 at 6:10:47 PM

From The Other Wiki, under "Origins of the Claims":

"During the Democratic Party's 2008 presidential primaries, anonymous e-mails from supporters of Hillary Clinton surfaced that questioned Obama's citizenship in an attempt to revive Clinton's faltering primary election campaign. These and numerous other chain e-mails during the subsequent presidential election circulated false rumors about Obama's origin, religion and birth certificate."

Also discussed here and here.

While I guess it's unfair to say that she started it, it was definitely started by her supporters.

edited 1st Nov '15 6:12:53 PM by Hodor2

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#104260: Nov 1st 2015 at 6:22:41 PM

Rationalwiki has an excellent article on it as well.

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#104261: Nov 1st 2015 at 6:23:55 PM

Democrats are somewhat guilty of taking advantage of, especially, the black vote, because who are they going to vote for, Republicans?

Kind of the same thing with the GOP largely paying lip service to the religious right.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#104262: Nov 1st 2015 at 6:26:38 PM

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing a "Democrats are the more racist party" angle, because that's not true. I'm more saying that I'm concerned about how whoever wins the primary is going to frame themselves in relation to Obama.

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#104263: Nov 1st 2015 at 6:32:41 PM

Didn't Clinton say during the first debate that she would "expand and improve" upon Obama's policies?

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#104264: Nov 1st 2015 at 6:37:24 PM

Yeah, Clinton at this point is basically framing herself as a third Obama term, while Sanders is suggesting that he'd move further to the left than Obama did.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104265: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:09:15 PM

"it's not a coincidence that Black Lives Matter targeted him"

They've targeted almost everybody they can. "Black Lives Matter" has been acting so counter productively it's not even funny. They've shown up to interrupt so many democrats that support them I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the whole thing was run by Trump.

I'm baaaaaaack
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104266: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:27:38 PM

No, no, Black Lives Matter is not run by Trump. It's an earnest movement, not an astroturf campaign, and its objective is to force Democratic politicians to adopt favorable stances regarding police persecution of minorities — an objective at which it has succeeded rather staggeringly well. So, if some idiot Republican really did mean to do some well poisoning, all it did was make the Democrats stop pussyfooting around the issue.

I'm way too tired right now to dig into the fallacy of centrism between the two parties. Maybe I'll touch on it again tomorrow, but for some independent research, look up policy positions in Congress by Democrats and policy positions in Congress by Republicans over the past, say, three or four decades. Other than adopting gay rights as a core issue, I challenge anyone to find any point on which the average Democrat has moved substantially to the left. Bernie Sanders doesn't count; he's been an independent up until he declared his candidacy as a Democrat.

On the other hand, you can find ample examples of the average Republican moving rightward. And again, I'm not talking about gay rights.

Aside from the tired (but true) reminder that Obamacare was originally a Republican idea proposed by the Heritage Foundation, universal single-payer healthcare (one of Bernie Sanders' key policy ideas and one that distinguishes him the most from his rivals) was an objective of FDR's New Deal way back when, but had to be dropped because of opposition from racist blocs within the Democrats themselves. In the 1970s, all those arseholes packed up over Johnson's civil rights programs and jumped ship to the Republicans, which has brought about the gradual downfall of the party.

edited 1st Nov '15 9:36:40 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104267: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:30:37 PM

That was intended to be a joke. I'll try to make my next one more apparent.

But seriously, what more do they want from Bernie? I'm serious in the sense that attacking their best bet and making the democrat side more divided cannot boost his chances though.

Wrecking havoc at the rallies for those already on your side can only weaken them.

edited 1st Nov '15 9:31:47 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104268: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:32:15 PM

My impression has been that BLM got what it wanted from Sanders and is now sticking around to make sure that the candidates don't conveniently forget their issues. Anyway, do you imagine that the opposing side will become less racist if BLM stops protesting?

edited 1st Nov '15 9:32:44 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104269: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:37:46 PM

Protesting is fine and Dandy. Running Sanders off a stage in Seattle is not.

They need to push and protest and do such things. Not saying they shouldn't. I don't get what they "got" from sanders though. He already supported many, if not all of their agenda.

I'm baaaaaaack
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104270: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:39:19 PM

Hmm, I didn't hear about that Seattle thing. Seems like someone needs to sit down and tell them to stop harassing a man who already supports them. The problem is that Sanders is rather vocal in considering racial inequality to be based in economic inequality and wanting to solve the latter first. He's half right: they are inextricably intertwined and can't be addressed separately.

edited 1st Nov '15 9:39:59 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104271: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:39:48 PM

I'm going to paraphrase a BLM aphorism:

White Democrats: "You had better vote for Sanders or else."

BLM: "'Or else' is already happening, Sanders or no Sanders."

[up]Yes, you did hear about Seattle. We had this exact argument about three months ago. That's not new and I really don't feel like retreading the problems with Joesolo's suggestions because I've been through it about a million times.

edited 1st Nov '15 9:41:30 PM by Aprilla

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104272: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:40:40 PM

Who the hell said, "Sanders or else?" I still think that Clinton is more electable, even though I agree with more of Sanders' positions.

[up] Oh, I thought that was about some new incident. You mean the one where he gave the protester the mic and let them talk? The incident that Trump got on his case for? I thought that was to Sanders' credit.

edited 1st Nov '15 9:42:25 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#104273: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:43:53 PM

[up]For starters, plenty of white Sanders supporters are.

Secondly, much of the same is being said about Clinton. Being obligated to vote Democrat has a pyrrhic feeling to it when it's evidently open season on black people regardless.

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#104274: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:45:42 PM

Yea I've been out of the loop on these threads for a while. That just rubbed me the wrong way about the whole movement.

I'd say more but if you guys have already beat this horse no need to do it again.

I'm baaaaaaack
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#104275: Nov 1st 2015 at 9:53:28 PM

"open season on black people"

Let's not buy into the rhetoric without stopping to think. Yes, there are pernicious patterns of harassment and bias by law enforcement towards minorities, especially blacks. There have been for hundreds of years; it's not a new thing. No, not all police are biased; most are trying to do their jobs in an environment where they face constant challenges to their integrity combined with hatred from the communities they serve, justified or not.

Making cops the enemy is not going to solve anyone's problems. Reform has to come from the top down, with national, state, and local governments who are invested in cleaning up their police forces. The protests are extremely important for keeping the nation's attention on these issues, but without a sympathetic national government, none of it matters. Push too hard and you'll drive people away from the polls. I don't think anyone imagines that black lives will matter much in a Trump (or, ironically, Carson) presidency.

I've seen some stuff on Facebook encouraging people to engage in passive civil resistance towards the police: refusing to cooperate more than superficially whilst loudly proclaiming their legal rights. If you think that's going to make anyone sympathetic... well, you might attract some people, like the ultra-right-wing anti-government types. Not sure those are the allies you want.

edited 1st Nov '15 9:57:20 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Total posts: 417,856
Top