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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#103676: Oct 19th 2015 at 10:33:03 PM

Captain America fighting blatant white supremacists really shouldn't be controversial.

Leviticus 19:34
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#103677: Oct 19th 2015 at 10:40:43 PM

[up] They're pro-gun, anti-immigrant, and fly the Confederate flag (I assume). Gosh, I just can't see how today's Republican Party see themselves in there.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#103678: Oct 19th 2015 at 10:45:22 PM

While what's political and what's controversial frequently overlap, they are not actually the same thing. Fighting the KKK is definitely political, even if most of us wouldn't find it particularly controversial.

I feel like we conflate the two as being the same quite frequently in discussing both politics and literature.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#103679: Oct 19th 2015 at 11:02:35 PM

It's hardly the first time such a group has been portrayed as the bad guy. Machete used them as its villain.

And an online game has a similarly motivated faction as one of its enemies. On the other hand, I find their idea of a militant left-wing equivalent utterly laughable.

edited 19th Oct '15 11:08:01 PM by Eschaton

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#103680: Oct 19th 2015 at 11:14:05 PM

Regarding the article linked last page: the fact that the Democratic party needs to step up their game on the state and local level isn't anything new, but they spell out the how and why pretty well there. That said, there's a lot of political horserace rhetoric in there, as well — political journalists suggesting that things are closer than they are in order to whip up more desire for political journalism. The idea that the Democrat's biggest problem is that they're smug jerks who can't stop congratulating themselves for getting a black guy elected president long enough to notice that there are other political offices in the country is idiotic. The Democrat's biggest problem is the fact that most of the Republican advantages are institutional. Incumbents are reelected more often than not, and more incumbents are Republicans than Democrats. Republican state legislatures make Republican-friendly policies in Republican-controlled states, gerrymandering districts in their favor and passing voter laws that disenfranchise likely Democrat voters.

Those aren't problems you can get around by being less smug. The only way to deal with them is to play a long game — gradually chip away at those advantages when opportunities to do so present themselves. Which, unfortunately, means waiting for opportunities to present themselves. Could the Democrats put more emphasis on state and local offices? Absolutely. Would that solve their problems at those levels? Probably not.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#103682: Oct 20th 2015 at 5:56:14 AM

I don't have a link, but I did see on CNN that county in Tennessee voted on raising the Confederate flag ... it failed by a vote of 20 against, 1 in favor. So that's some good news.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#103683: Oct 20th 2015 at 6:17:42 AM

The GOP has gotten exceptionally good at gaming the system, in part because of voter apathy and in part because the right-wing noise machine is so good at creating a sense of urgency and the left-wing machine (what exists of it) is not. As much as i decry the Electronic Frontier Foundation for being too shrill on things like TPP, it's probably what is needed to get voters out there and keep them there.

The nice upside is that to get where they are, Republicans keep doubling down on their policies that turn off pretty much all voters who aren't older, white, and Christian, which means they're definitely losing that long game unless they manage to get straight-up Apartheid laws passed.

And frustrating as it may be, it's indeed mathematically impossible for the Democrats to recapture the House until redistricting. We need to focus on state-level elections like AG and state courts (PA Supreme Court is up this November), so that we can help put pressure on GOP gerrymandering at the state level, which will then create better outcomes at the national level, but for the next 6 years, we're stuck.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#103684: Oct 20th 2015 at 6:33:41 AM

[up][up]That one guy voting in favour of raising it must have looked like a complete idiot.

edited 20th Oct '15 6:34:01 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#103685: Oct 20th 2015 at 8:22:18 AM

4chan nails Trump.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103686: Oct 20th 2015 at 8:24:17 AM

[up][lol]

I find it sad that Webb is getting out....but Chafee isn't taking the hint. Especially since Webb did better than Chafee, such as it was.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#103687: Oct 20th 2015 at 8:37:22 AM

and every one of those opinions is a Rorschach test about that person's personal politics.

HELLO. DID SOMEONE CALL.

I mean, I think this discussion is more fit to the "U.S Cultures" thing, but politically and speaking as a foreigner so many U.S born fictions are jingoistic as fuck.

Warcraft only needs an "U.S.A! U.S.A!" and more red, white and blue to be blatantly more obvious. X-Men is deeply steeped in racial problems...through the eyes of WEIRD guys. Can't even see a DC Comics thing without it being grotesquely partisan in its 'mericanism.

It drips from every work of fiction that "America" is not just a nation but a whole concept ideal and emobdiment of glory, perversion, sin, hatred, love, opportunity, or something.

It does not matter what it represents, the thing is that it represents something by itself, big, important and its ideal alone tends to be the motif or motive of the work.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#103688: Oct 20th 2015 at 8:52:19 AM

[up]In the case of Captain America, it's very justified.

It's also probably justified in the case of Superman, whose slogan was always "Truth, Justice, and the American way" and was meant to symbolize an immigrant into the US.

In general, though, the idea that America represents an ideal more than just a nation is practically America's hat (America's other hat would be the "Frontier Spirit", most likely). Most opinions of America are shaped around this notion. Even negative opinions of America are usually just Hype Backlash to this idea.

edited 20th Oct '15 8:55:58 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#103689: Oct 20th 2015 at 8:55:00 AM

[up][up] I don't disagree with that notion at all. I'll also add that the same attitude in US Media is also a source of anti-Americanism around the world. People don't take kindly to the idea of that the "USA is the best nation ever" being pushed into their faces all the time.

edited 20th Oct '15 8:56:58 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#103690: Oct 20th 2015 at 8:58:03 AM

Warcraft only needs an "U.S.A! U.S.A!" and more red, white and blue to be blatantly more obvious.
Yeah, friend and I had a good laugh when the last major update added a new zone to invade and oil. Suddenly, the whole thing made sense. :/

EDIT: And now I just remembered the Cataclysm questline where you have to swindle a Centaur tribe out of their land because they're sitting on an oil deposit.

edited 20th Oct '15 9:00:07 AM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#103691: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:12:18 AM

[up][up][up]Hmm. Lemme put it this way.

Your fiction, including Captain America in all its incarnations (I am not talking about the differences between "THINK THIS A STANDS FOR FRANCE" vs "France is pretty cool" C As), tends to portray the idea of "America" as what The Kim Family would want others to think of their nation.

Instead of having some decency to history and predecessors you know it seems just a bit tiring when they call everything "American". Freedom? 'merican. Nevermind the French Revolution (or its hundreds of predecessors). God? 'merican. Nevermind...the rich variety of religions in the world. Unity? 'merica, of course, nevermind...heck, the rest of the countries, too.

Even "foreigners" have to be wrapped in red, white and blue (Wonder Woman) or have relatable (Minutemen to Batman) "American" parallels or be spousing "American ideals" (Green Lantern) to be understood and consumed.

Again.

You guys have the exact same thing the Kims would wet their pants at having, at least ideologically, and spouse it. And don't even notice it. This goes unquestioned, unrestrained, and unnoticed. It is not just fiction it is politics.

It's also funny.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103692: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:20:05 AM

Jim Webb is likely dropping out of the 2016 race today. To nobody's surprise at all.

He has made noise about running as an independent, which would probably go nowhere. He'd be lucky to get even a tiny number of votes.

"We were just b——ing about the way our party has moved. They have given up on the South, they have given up on the heartland, on rural America," [Mudcat] Saunders said, expressing both his and Webb's view. "It is a math game and the math is not going to work. It might work once and it might work twice. We just don't like the Democratic Party's strategy."

This more or less confirms that Webb was running as a "conservative Democrat" — trying to appeal to the rural heartland that finds the Democratic party to be too focused on urban issues. It is somewhat charming that he imagines this mythical beast to still exist to any significant degree.

[down] Exactly.

edited 20th Oct '15 9:52:38 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#103693: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:22:57 AM

Who?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103694: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:27:44 AM

Also, every nation on Earth, more or less, has "patriotic" fiction. Maybe there are a few that are culturally self-deprecating enough to write fiction about how much they suck, but that's far from the norm. The United States has a long history of exceptionalist doctrine, starting with Manifest Destiny back in the colonial era, but it's only significantly different from other nations in terms of degree. National amour propre occurs everywhere.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#103695: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:28:36 AM

[up][up][up][up]It is funny.

I would say that America demonstrates a Confucian principle known as "Te" (power over others gained through their respect rather than force). No dictator could ever achieve America's level of power.

edited 20th Oct '15 9:28:45 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#103696: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:35:09 AM

The U.S gets to be relevant because it is so huge and it is so rich. I do not let stories narrate this however, I take it from history. If anything, the sole point I am tryingto make is that it is very, very, very rare for fiction authors to be exempt of this trait of U.S borne works. hence why i refered to it as a "trend"

As for Jim Webb...I was sick this weekend so I didnt pay much attention to anything save the seething pain that threathened to consume me from the inside out but basically, U.S related news call the democratic debate as a "win for hillary over his opponent Bernie Sanders" and "There were other three".

I lul'd.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#103697: Oct 20th 2015 at 10:46:33 AM

@Protagonist: Worth noting: The American Dream, in the sense that that was meant when the term was coined, is uncompromisingly left-wing by today's standards, on account of being an inherently pro-immigration statement.

You aren't going to hear Republicans talking about it because the idea was that it was accessible to anyone ("white" was only implied) who wanted to come to America and work hard to achieve it. Coming to America and working hard, these days, is "stealing jobs from Real Americans."

So even an ultraconservative Captain America makes no sense aligned with the nativists in the Republican Party, and Superman supporting nativism makes no sense - he is, after all, an illegal alien.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#103698: Oct 20th 2015 at 11:29:35 AM

There was a minor fit the time DC tried to divorce Superman from the explicitly American way, a few years ago. From conservatives, of course. Because the idea that Superman could nominally consider himself a hero for the entire planet and not explicitly be American was somehow troubling?

@Aszur: Very minor nitpick. You're spelling "espouse" wrong. Spouse is a gender neutral word for who you're married to.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#103699: Oct 20th 2015 at 11:58:03 AM

If you like grammar so much, why don't you go ahead and become its espouse!?

-Runs off crying. Slams door. Listens to emo music real loud.-

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#103700: Oct 20th 2015 at 12:27:37 PM

It's also probably justified in the case of Superman, whose slogan was always "Truth, Justice, and the American way" and was meant to symbolize an immigrant into the US.

No, that wasn't originally his slogan. It was coined around the initial US involvement in the Cold War for reasons similar to the conception of the phrase "In God We Trust".

edited 20th Oct '15 12:32:24 PM by Aprilla


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