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Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#103401: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:57:29 PM

No such entity exists. The United Nations crippled itself with the veto power thing.

And when in history has the U.S backing up a small insurgent or neighboring nation in their military struggles ever worked well?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103402: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:58:08 PM

[up][up]Pakistan is actually an Islamic Yugoslavia with the Taliban acting as sockpuppets to keep the military relevant. But thats neither here nor there. Democracy doesn't come into it period.

EDIT- Then make a plan. Simply throwing your hands up and saying there isn't one is unexcuseable.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:59:12 PM by FFShinra

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103403: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:59:23 PM

You do still have the moral high ground, or you could, it's right there for the taking. You won't get it back by walking away, people get so angry at the US because they do expect better from it, so give them better. We are better than the alternative, or at least we can be.

We had the moral high ground in Libya, we should have used it, pushed with it and done a lot more good.

On Syria we might not be able to make a plan (though before folks forget, Russia was an ally of the Serbs, didn't stop us then). But there's still Libya, pull a force together, build a system, submit yourself to international oversight even though you're the only doing all the work, invite others to help even though they're your enemies. We've done it before.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:01:31 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103404: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:00:04 PM

No Democrat will willingly authorize a full-scale nation-building military intervention in Syria, and God help us all if we get a Republican government in 2017. It is simply not going to happen, so we need to talk about what will be, not what we wish would be.

Heck, the best realistic result in 2017 will be a Republican House of Representatives with a Democratic Senate and White House, and that's a model for continued, near-total gridlock, with no political will to commit further military force to the Middle-East.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:03:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#103405: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:03:00 PM

Well right now we are losing our asses off on the world stage on all fronts and slipping into a third Cold War panic.

Something needs to change.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103406: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:03:36 PM

I'm talking largely about Libya, as for Syria, if nobody will authorise it then perhaps we need to look at why, why do all politicians feels that the US cleaning up a mess it helped make, would be unpopular?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103407: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:03:55 PM

[up][up]You are absorbing too much alarmist rhetoric from the news networks. It is nowhere near that dire.

[up] Because of war exhaustion. There is simply no will among voters to continue dumping soldiers and money into an endless pit.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:04:42 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#103408: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:04:09 PM

No Democrat will willingly authorize a full-scale nation-building military intervention in Syria, and God help us all if we get a Republican government in 2017. It is simply not going to happen, so we need to talk about what will be, not what we wish would be.

Bloodshed will continue unabated in Syria in Iraq, there will be further ISIS-led attacks in Turkey (which will become increasingly unstable) and elsewherenote , and the EU will be pushed beyond breaking point, possibly disintegrating, which would lead to further several parts of several former EU members declaring independence.

Me cynical?

edited 14th Oct '15 1:06:55 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103409: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:04:42 PM

Not all republicans are alike, but whatever.

And Hil is hawkish enough that she very well might.

More importantly, not talking about it only gives this Ostritch-view more political ground, and I refuse to let it. And even more importantly than that, nothing lasts forever in poltics, including this view. This refugee crisis is going to eventually reach these shores, and we will have to act on it.

EDIT- And Ninja'd like fuck.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:06:02 PM by FFShinra

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103410: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:06:23 PM

[up][up] Yep. That's the likely outcome. And you know what, we can't stop it. We can only hope to address a fraction of those problems, even in the best case scenario of sufficient political will and maximum commitment of resources. The EU's dissolution is its own problem — soluble with the right political willpower, but that is nonexistent. We are not the world's savior. It is up to the world to save itself. Maybe it has to go through crisis to come out the other side.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:07:24 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#103411: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:06:55 PM

[up][up] So, we already know what you think about him, but...

Seriously, what does everyone else think of John Kasich? He won't get the nomination thanks to a certain mentally disturbed candidate, but he should be an example of why we shouldn't cover all politicians on one side with one blanket.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:07:03 PM by SciFiSlasher

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#103412: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:08:10 PM

[up][up] Does the world even want to save itself?

Keep Rolling On
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103413: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:08:14 PM

[up][up][awesome]

EDIT- Small ass post, still get the [nja]. Oy.

@Fighteer- Sitting aside and doing nothing is not a solution. Nor really an option.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:09:17 PM by FFShinra

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#103414: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:10:30 PM

Even if these nations were willing to make themselves subservient to the US and do exactly what we say that doesn't mean the US will be able to effectively guide them. We have our own problems. Hell, half our government is constantly trying to tear everything apart.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103415: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:10:59 PM

[up][up][up] Semantically meaningless question. It will or it won't. In the end, we're just a big nation with a twentieth of the world's population. We can't save everyone. Even a maximum commitment of resources will require the picking of winners and losers.

The people of the world look to us for help, but when we step in, complain that we aren't helping in the way they want. Well, great, what exactly should they have expected? Are we your parents? We've got our own problems — extraordinarily serious ones. It would be nice if our leaders would stop using the world's problems to distract us from ours.

[up][up] Yes, it is an option. You may not like it, but it's definitely possible.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:14:38 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103416: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:14:03 PM

Who says subservient to the US? There's a reason we had an international oversight group in Bosnia. Plus the US can (theoretically) help in what is perhaps the most important way, it can provide the security forces needed to build stability.

Oh and Fighter, large scale intervention and state building may be politically impossible in the US, but so is abandoning austerity and the commitment to low inflation above all else in the Euro zone, yet your always calling for us to cut that crap out.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:17:33 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103417: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:15:52 PM

@Kostya - Not a question of subservience. Not at all what I'm suggesting. Not saying one has to be unilateral, but there is a such thing as going too far in the opposite extreme, which Obama has crossed into with Libya and Syria.

@Fighteer- That is an oversimplification of our foreign affairs and the world's reaction to it. The only times the world has given us shit was when we deserved it. Do recall, Libyans were beside themselves with gratitude when we helped them with Gaddafi, which only went away when they were overtaken by chaos.

And you really really don't know anything about the foreign service if you think it's possible to up and leave and think that will be at all a viable option. I suggest you look into all the things we do that doesn't get covered in the media.

This cynicism is increasingly looking like an excuse.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:16:52 PM by FFShinra

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#103418: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:16:01 PM

[up][up]Creating an international oversight group is not the job of the US. That's a task for the United Nations.

[up]That doesn't change the fact that I don't think the US is fit to bring peace and prosperity to others. We can't even give it to our own people.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:19:13 PM by Kostya

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103419: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:16:18 PM

Oh and Fighter, large scale intervention and state building may be politically impossible in the US, but so is abandoning austerity and the commitment to low inflation above all else in the Euro zone, yet your always calling for us to cut that crap out.

One's domestic and one isn't. The irony here is that the EU (including Britain) is tearing itself apart internally with misguided economic policies overseen by technocratic oligarchies, and you're coming here and challenging us to man up and fix our messes in the Middle-East. Why don't you guys do some of this nation building you keep talking about? Why is it always our job?

I'll put our hypocrites up against your hypocrites any day of the week. We can have a hypocrisy contest. It would make a great Bread and Circuses distraction.

I'll say it here: hope has to start from within. That means cleaning up our domestic shit before we start making eyes at other nations, so we can actually be a model of the ideology that we push on everyone else.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:18:32 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103420: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:18:31 PM

@Fighteer- Who is saying anything about "only" our job. The world is becoming multipolar and more multilateral. You seem to be thinking me and Silas are asking for Bush style foreign policy, which is not the case.

Except you can't fix internal issues while ignoring external ones. The globe is too connected these days.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:19:01 PM by FFShinra

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103421: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:19:16 PM

but when we step in, complain that we aren't helping in the way they want.

This is a bullshit meme that needs to die. Look up US support is Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo, look up UK support in Sierra Leon. Look at the thanks we got when we helped in Libya. When we actually step up the places we help are incredibly grateful.

The people who get angry all the time are the people who don't want the US helping.

Oh and I'm totally up for the British to step up, this is as much our mess as it is yours (also the French's). But we need to do it together. It's why I get so angry at German foreign policy, it consists of going "I did a bad thing so I'll never do anything again", while happily letting more people suffer.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:20:17 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103422: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:20:17 PM

What you are asking for is multi-trillion dollar nation-building exercises with a full commitment of U.S. military and economic power. That is simply not going to happen. Nobody will vote for it; there is no will to get people to vote for it; a quarter of our country thinks that Muslims are all evil terrorists out to kill us and they command half of our political establishment.

It. Ain't. Going. To. Happen.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:21:02 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103423: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:21:47 PM

@Fighteer - Same is true for everything Sanders is asking for, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't say it. Or people don't want it.

@Kostya - World is too interconnected to focus on one or the other. Gotta do both.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103424: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:22:47 PM

Okay so we start small, we build that will.

There's no will in the UK at the moment to elect Corbyn, everyone agrees that he's awesome, but they 'know' that nobody will vote for him, that's not a reason not to have him as Labour leader, it's a reason to win the dam argument that we're right and Austerity needs to go.

edited 14th Oct '15 1:25:25 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103425: Oct 14th 2015 at 1:24:01 PM

It is far more probable that someone will command a sweeping revolution to dethrone our plutocratic oligarchy than that anyone will step up for a full-scale Middle-Eastern intervention, at least if we have a Democratic administration for the next eight years.

Of course, the most likely outcome is that we muddle along with a Democratic President struggling to contend with an obstructionist Republican Congress amid token progressive changes and continued total dysfunction in Europe and the Middle-East, but it is necessary to order even one's dreams.

I am concerned, first and foremost, with the nation my son will grow up in. That takes priority over Europe, Russia, Syria, etc. If we have to prioritize, I know what's on the top of my list. It doesn't mean I can't also advocate for a sensible Middle-East policy, but first things first.

Putin can go homoerotically fuck himself. Maybe Germans can finally get their heads out of their asses if they don't want to be conquered again. If they can't, who are we to save them?

edited 14th Oct '15 1:26:41 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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