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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103376: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:27:17 PM

All of our efforts to intervene and "build democratic institutions" have ended in disaster; what makes you think we'll succeed this time? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103377: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:27:30 PM

I've edited it to show that the quote is my take of what your saying, not an actual quote from you. Now would you care to address the rest of my post? Especially the long list of shit that Obama could do to appease Putin that he's not doing that you ignored previously.

All of our efforts to intervene and "build democratic institutions" have ended in disaster;

Bosnia and Kosovo say hi, Sierra Leon for the Brits says hi and East Timor says hi. Before that Germany and Japan say hi, as do others I can't think of.

You can do it just fine, Bush doing two invasions (not interventions, invasions) and fucking up the situation afterwards does not mean the entire idea of state building in a post-internvetion environment is worthless, it means that Bush should never be allowed to build so much as a garden shed.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:29:47 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#103378: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:31:30 PM

[up] Okay I admit that I was being hyperbolic and overreacting, blame my own frustration. But I fail to see how standing up for your allies and interests is "warmongering." That's all I have advocated for.

Edit: But yeah I say Obama has tried to take Russia into consideration. We haven't armed the Ukrainians with lethal weaponry, in spite of members of his own party screaming down his throat to do it. We did almost noting for the rebels until it was to late, and of course their was the dam reset in the first place all the way back in 08, and the removal of the missile shield from Europe, over the protest of our allies in the region. So while I admit Obama could do more,role over and let Putin walk all over him, don't act like we haven't tired to calm the bear.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:34:41 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103380: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:36:05 PM

@Fighteer - There is a vast gulf between Bush-style half-assed democracy-building and Obama-style do nothing after destroying the offending government.

Like nation-building. Not democracy-building. Nation-building. Most of our problems have come from not only the half-assed nature of our programs (including the ridiculous timelines, the forcefeeding of democracy, the rushed through nature of institution-building), but the fact that they were usually done to the exclusion of local elites, which ensured failure.

In Afghanistan, we gave power to the Tajiks and Uzbeks to the exclusion of all Pashtuns except Karzai. In Iraq, we dissolved all their institutions rather than try and reform them, which we could have. In Libya, we left them to rot in utter anarchy, despite knowing of Gaddafi's Fisher King effect on the state.

In Syria, if we werent' going to go all in, we should at least be trying to save parts of it. We almost have a plan with the Kurds, but we won't go that final mile because we defer to Ankara and Baghdad. The Jordanians wanted to create a safezone in the south, and we have demurred.

Syria can still be a victory for the US, but it requires planning. Hell, Libya can even be saved if we try helping the Tobruk government beyond just keeping them kind of alive.

But poo-pooing all efforts to assist locals in their government with such a broad stroke because of policy failures (instead of, you know, learning from our mistakes and trying to do better and think longer term) only hurts the US in the end because we're seen as both inept and flighty, and thats not a useful reputation in this globalized world.

EDIT- [nja] by Silas.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:39:23 PM by FFShinra

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103381: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:39:21 PM

FF Shinra: To be frank, I'm sick of it all. I have no confidence that anything we can do in the area will be successful without monumental expenditures that would be better directed domestically. Even our erstwhile allies are hardly models of Western democratic ideals; the Sauds are barely better than Iran in terms of their repressiveness and conservatism.

The whole place is a morass that we helped create, and the sooner we drag ourselves out of the quicksand, the better. Let them rot. Let Russia take over. I'm done.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:42:47 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103382: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:39:33 PM

[up]X4 Obama has got the UN to condem Russia over Crimea, he's armed the Ukrainian government, he's established a new NATO reaction force to prevent a Ukraien like situation happens to a NATO member, he's pushed for economic assistance th the Ukrainian government, he's sanctioned the Russian government, how is that not "standing up for your allies and interests"? Especially when Ukraine isn't even a US ally or interest, it's a (now former) Russian ally and interests, we're in the Russian backyard, they're not in ours.

[up]X3 That's because you've never tried it in the Middle East, all you've done is invade countries, not intervene and state build, that's was very specifically not something you guys were interested in with Iraq and Afghanistan.

The fact that you tried to cut bread with a fork does not mean it's impossible for you to cut bread, it means you should use a knife next time.

[up] It's your mess, you owe it to the people there to try and clean it up. Think of it like how the British put the East Africa squadron out to fight the slave trade after we finally outlawed it. After all the harm we did and the pain we caused, it was dam right that we tried to do at least something to in part make up for our crimes, they've paid in blood for our safety and security for so long, I think we should pay in blood for there's at least once.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:44:00 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#103383: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:39:43 PM

[up][up][up][awesome] I still say one of our biggest mistakes in Afghanistan was giving power to Karzi, and not restoring the monarchy while we had the chance, and maybe letting Karzi be PM, or giving the position to Abdualh Abdualh in order to reward our allies.

[up][up] And what if Russia does fix it, again, they will have more of the world's oil in their power. In any case this discussion is pointless, even Bernie Sanders won't pull us entirely out of the Middle East. The region is just to vital to be ignored.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:44:18 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103384: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:44:11 PM

[up][up] This is realpolitik. Is it worth the expenditures that would be required, when there is so much to be done here at home if we are to be a "model of democracy for the world to emulate"? I think the world would respect us a lot more if we publicly admitted that we've fucked up so badly that we have no recourse but to withdraw entirely and stop the bleeding.

[up] So what? Aren't we supposed to be reducing oil dependency and changing to cleaner fuel sources? This will just be an incentive. Anyway, the world oil market is fungible. The source is irrelevant.

Also, it sounds like you're baldly admitting that the only reason we care about the Middle-East is its oil production, not because its people are suffering under despotic regimes. You think the world doesn't realize that?

edited 14th Oct '15 12:45:35 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103385: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:45:09 PM

Actually Iran is much better than Saudia, but that would hurt the official American line of Iran being the new Soviet Union.

And I understand the frustration. The region hasn't been handled well at all since the 40s. No argument here. But thats not the same as saying it can't be done. Nor does that excuse current policy. Thats all my position is. Getting out might feel nice, but it doesn't help.

As for costs, it never had to be so expensive, but thats more of an issue of American companies trying to get in on the action, which is a seperate issue. If we'd invested in local businesses (we did, but not as much as our contracts to our companies), things might have been cheaper (and better for them).

EDIT- I should just shut up and let Silas speak.[lol]

edited 14th Oct '15 12:46:13 PM by FFShinra

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#103386: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:45:13 PM

[up][up] Look at Syria, the bleeding ain't stooped just because we left. Hell in Iraq and Libya the bleeding restarted because we left.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:45:20 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#103387: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:45:29 PM

All this talk about not bombing and surrendering to the ruskies sounds a lot like dang commie talk to me

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103388: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:46:07 PM

[up]X5 You really can't go restoring monarchies these days, the biggest mistake was failing to put in an international oversight regime that would ensure that whatever government came about wouldn't start fucking over the groups that didn't form the government.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:50:03 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#103389: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:47:11 PM

@ Fighteer:

Is it worth the expenditures that would be required, when there is so much to be done here at home if we are to be a "model of democracy for the world to emulate"? I think the world would respect us a lot more if we publicly admitted that we've fucked up so badly that we have no recourse but to withdraw entirely and stop the bleeding.

But don't expect any foreign support if there's a domestic backlash.

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103390: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:47:45 PM

@Greenmantle: Like we're getting tons of foreign support now.

Anyway, if we want this to truly be a global effort, we need the U.N. to back it, and that means getting China and Russia to go along, which is tough when we're facing down Putin like a schoolyard bully and signing a treaty that amounts to a trade war with China.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:48:34 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103391: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:48:16 PM

Most people were in favor of restoring the monarchy, since the King was well loved, but Bush's obsession with establishing democracy everywhere put the kibosh on it.

One thing that will come of the US being a little more wary (which is not a bad thing as long as one doesn't become overcautious) that IS a good thing is that allowing traditional elites to take power in traditional forms of government will become a viable solution again.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103392: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:50:09 PM

Bush didn't want democracy; that was a sham for the cameras. He wanted compliant governments that would sell their resources to U.S. companies and spend that money on U.S. contractors, all of them his cronies. He had zero interest in fair, effective governments except in as much as they agreed to become, in effect, subjects to our corporate monarchy.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:50:36 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#103393: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:50:54 PM

[up][up] He did know the Britain,one of the few countries to follow him into both of his wars, is considered a democracy and has a monarch right? I ask this rhetorically to emphasize how idiotic the decision was.

[up] Again, we didn't even touch Iraq's oil, the fucking Chinese did that. I still don't see how US companies benefited from the invasion beyond the fantasy world of left wing talking points. If anyone wants to enlighten me otherwise go right ahead.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:53:24 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103394: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:51:57 PM

Britain's basically a neo-conservative puppet state now, following around U.S. Republicans in their war efforts like an eager puppy. It's lost all credibility with Blair and now Cameron at the helm.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:53:02 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103395: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:52:04 PM

[up][up][up]Either way, putting the King back in power (which would have led to a more stable government, even if institutions needed rebuilding) would have gone against Bush's plans.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:52:12 PM by FFShinra

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103396: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:53:00 PM

The bleeding hasn't stopped, it won't stop, you've created an open would and have the bandages, you can't just go "yeah man I shouldn't have stabbed you, good luck with that". Actions have consequences and the US can't keep running from them.

Plus when you guys go isolationist the world tends to go really crazy, you think you're bad, look at what we get up to when you kids stop bringing us our meds.

Also you'd be surprised what you can swing internationally, if need be put the Indians and Brasilians on the oversight committee, just make sure there's somebody other than "the west" keeping an eye on the situation. Hell just having somebody would be an improvement over what was done in Iraq.

I actually think Bush did want democracy, as did Blair, they weren't evil like Cheney, they were genuinely so stupid and into their own rhetoric that they thought they were bringing democracy. Which is even scarier when you think about it.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:55:38 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103397: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:54:43 PM

[up] Who said isolationist? I want us to step away, stop trying to repair things ourselves like an ogre in a china shop, and hand the matter over to an international group that can manage things responsibly and with consensus. If that means committing U.S. troops, so be it, but we can't be the ones calling the shots. We've lost that right. We no longer have any claim to the moral high ground. Continuing to act like we do will only make the situation worse.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:55:18 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#103398: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:55:04 PM

[up][up] If we had done that in Afghanistan Pakistan would have blown a gasket,a nuclear onetongue

edited 14th Oct '15 12:55:11 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103399: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:56:50 PM

[up][up]By all means, we should do it multilaterally. But that means we should actually try building that coalition with other leaders and be clear. And it still doesn't excuse overly cautious behavior that doesn't help the situation. It's better to sit it out than to do that.

And I agree, continuing to claim the moral highground has been rather dumb.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:57:19 PM by FFShinra

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Lost in Space
#103400: Oct 14th 2015 at 12:57:07 PM

[up][up]Pakistan is already half-run by its version of the Taliban. It's not exactly a model of stable and reliable democracy.

As for Bush and the oil, that is the tragic part of the whole affair: it was managed so incompetently that even the surreptitious goal of getting access to oil wealth failed.

[up] We have no model, no plan, no idea how to accomplish that. It is not in the cards. No Democrat will willingly authorize a full-scale nation-building military intervention in Syria, and God help us all if we get a Republican government in 2017. Realistically, it's impossible.

edited 14th Oct '15 12:59:23 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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