TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103226: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:18:27 PM

It's almost like manned fighter aircraft are becoming obsolete in today's military environment. And we're going to have the mother of all expensive fighter aircraft ready just in time to be irrelevant!

edited 13th Oct '15 2:21:59 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#103227: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:19:40 PM

I wouldn't say that. Especially not with fighter craft.

There's still lag to account for and we still lack any reliable kind of combat AI.

People are much more reliable and intelligent and probably will be for quite some time.

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103228: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:20:58 PM

Drones are terrible if you don't have total airspace control, and you need regular planes to establish that.

edited 13th Oct '15 2:21:09 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#103230: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:27:13 PM

What super missiles?

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103231: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:28:02 PM

The surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles that we are surely developing to counter Russia's super fighter aircraft. Or are we spending all our money on the F-35?

You see, this is where the story breaks down. We are told over and over about these superweapons that our rivals are developing that will make all our technology obsolete, so we need to get this new tech to beat them. But when simple questions are asked, everyone blinks and says, "Huh?"

In an environment where fighter aircraft are obsolete in the face of more advanced radars and missiles, why bother fielding them? If our enemies have fighter aircraft that can survive in this environment, why is our tech insufficient to deal with them?

edited 13th Oct '15 2:31:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#103232: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:28:08 PM

If next years mech fight is a success, I see giant robots replacing most modern military vehicles if it sparks enough interest from the military afterwards.

That, and Iron Man styled Powered Armor

edited 13th Oct '15 2:28:44 PM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#103233: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:30:19 PM

Russia's super fighter aircraft aren't anything too amazing. They're running into some of the same problems we are.

They're only "super" because the F-35 sucks that hard.

What we really need to worry about are Russia's land based anti air systems. They're easily the best in the world by a very large margin and are fast on their way to negating all our advances in stealth technology.

Why do you think Israel was so terrified of that possible Iran/Russia S-300 deal a while back?

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103234: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:31:11 PM

To be effective at bringing down enemy aircraft the missiles have to be fired from within reasonable range, meaning from AA on the ground or from another aircraft.

Airspace is actually kinda like regular space in that sense, you can't just send a dozen guys in with high tech and expect them to control a city, you can't just have a couple of missile sub of shore with supper missiles and expect them to control the airspace. You need shit in the zone doing patrols.

If our enemies have fighter aircraft that can survive in this environment, why is our tech insufficient to deal with them?

Because Russian wins at AA, hands down. Also who says fighter aircraft are on the way out? You still need ground support and bomber support if nothing else.

edited 13th Oct '15 2:33:02 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103235: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:32:03 PM

What you're telling me is that it is clearly pointless to keep throwing development money into aircraft. If the F-35 is going to be useless anyway in the face of Russian SAM tech, why bother?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103236: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:34:10 PM

Because you guys might fight someone who doesn't have Russian tech but does have something else? Or that only has limited coverage from their Russian tech, thus you can avoid the Russian tech and hit targets at the fringes that are protected by other less capable tech.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#103237: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:34:45 PM

Because we're not always going to be fighting the Russians and also because almost all of our combat doctrines are built around our air force.

We need planes in the sky. Our planes are too old to keep flying.

The F-35 is useless but we need something up there.

edited 13th Oct '15 2:36:22 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#103238: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:37:16 PM

Because the Russian radar tech is yet to prove being able to reliably track VLO aircraft without being inside the range of stand off ordinance fired from VLO aircraft.

If Stealth was such a hype, the Russians and the Chinese wouldn't be scrambling their asses to develop VLO of their own.

Inter arma enim silent leges
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#103239: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:38:21 PM

They aren't is the thing. The Russians have shown time and again that stealth is far from a priority when designed the PAK-FA. What it's built to be is the last word in air to air combat, the stealth is just a pleasant bonus. If that.

As for the Chinese, well they're just weird and trying to copy us because they can't make their own domestic designs.

edited 13th Oct '15 2:39:04 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#103240: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:40:00 PM

"The F-35 is useless but we need something up there."

Which is, apparently, the F-35, since we've sunk so much money into it that we don't have anything else. And when the first fifty-billion dollar aircraft is shot down by a million-dollar missile system? We can't keep that pace up for long.

The F-35 is designed for a mission that doesn't exist. So clearly we should build lots of them. What am I not getting?

edited 13th Oct '15 2:40:59 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#103241: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:42:48 PM

What you're telling me is that it is clearly pointless to keep throwing development money into aircraft.

That is that Duncan Sandys said in 1957.

He was wrong.

Keep Rolling On
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#103242: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:43:07 PM

The thing is that all of our current aircraft are just plain old. As in they're too old to fly despite our best efforts to maintain them. Not much we could have done to prevent that, this sorta shit happens.

The problem is that the F-35 is the only design we have right now and it really sucks. We don't have the time to start over, we need something in the air now and unfortunately the F-35 is that something.

And the F-35 is designed for every mission, not just air superiority.

As a result it's worse at doing the jobs of everything it's replacing and it's hideously expensive.

But unfortunately we are just straight up out of options and time.

edited 13th Oct '15 2:45:24 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#103243: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:52:29 PM

The Russians aren't that big on establishing air superiority over hostile territory are they? The US doctrine calls for air superiority, the Russian one calls for denying the enemy air superiority, not establishing their own.

The F-35 is designed for a mission that doesn't exist. So clearly we should build lots of them. What am I not getting?

That's its designed for several missions, some of which don't exist, but some of which do.

edited 13th Oct '15 2:53:47 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#103244: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:52:51 PM

As I've said, I mostly expect mediocrity out of the F-35. Not actual, outright sucking (at least once the software's working right and the boneheaded B-model not withstanding), but at the end of the day, a fully-functional F-35 replacing everything seems a lot like asking the F-16 to replace everything except the F-15 - it might do alright at a lot of those roles (eg. light-to-medium dogfights and being a bomb truck), but there's a LOT of shoehorning involved, especially in specialized fields like CAS.

I'm more annoyed at the massive cost overruns and delays than anything else.

edited 13th Oct '15 2:54:23 PM by Balmung

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#103245: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:53:25 PM

[up][up]Yep, Russia's doctrines are built around mechanized infantry and rocket/artillery barrages.

Their anti air is much more about area denial than establishing their own air superiority.

edited 13th Oct '15 2:54:03 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#103246: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:54:38 PM

There is a democrat debate on CNN sometime soon, right?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#103247: Oct 13th 2015 at 3:05:17 PM

There's a debate tonight, in fact. MSNBC's been blathering about what might happen all day.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#103248: Oct 13th 2015 at 3:19:42 PM

Anyone know if there is an internet feed for that? I don't have TV right now.

edited 13th Oct '15 3:20:00 PM by FFShinra

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#103249: Oct 13th 2015 at 3:23:27 PM

Also, in some cases the F-35 is being called in to replace 40-year-old planes that are flat-out better at whatever job it is than the F-35 would ever be. Case in point: CAS missions, which the A-10 is quite capable of handling for another generation.

Honestly, I'm in favor of buying the Rafale for this generation's standard multirole. We have interceptors covered for the foreseeable future, the A-10 can be sold to the Army, and the Rafale can take over for the F-35. Seriously, why did we kill the Raptor if we were just going to piss the money down this hole instead?

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#103250: Oct 13th 2015 at 3:25:52 PM

Lots of reasons. The Raptor isn't even a real option anymore, it's got it's own issues and restarting production is completely impossible.

Oh really when?

Total posts: 417,856
Top