TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#102601: Oct 3rd 2015 at 7:33:18 AM

1.) Most gun-related acts of violence involve domestic violence, negligent discharges and suicides, not killing sprees.

2.) A lot of spree shootings typically involve ideas, beliefs and attitudes such as racism, xenophobia, misogyny, religious zealotry, anti-theism and even classism in some cases. These issues are related to ideological background radiation that continues to contaminate social progress. These issues can be combated and mitigated through social justice initiatives. You know, that so-called social justice warrior drivel that people love to mock and dismiss? I posted that previous article for a reason.

3.) Bigotry is not a mental illness. Being an asshole does not mean you are in need of psychiatric care. Attributing asshole behaviors to mental illness ignores the fact that these behaviors and ideologies are normalized in public and personal discourse. This is illustrated daily by an ad nausea fixation on a certain presidential hopeful who shall, for the sake of my own sanity, remain unnamed.

The rest of this post is also great but thank you especially for this, Aprilla. As someone who lives with a paranoid schizophrenic, the attribution of "Gun violence happens because we let crazy people in our society!" struck a nerve such that I lacked the diplomatic capacity to properly respond to it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#102602: Oct 3rd 2015 at 7:39:14 AM

In tangential news, Cracked invokes Godwin's Law in regards to Donald Trump.

[up]

I've always seen it more that we don't help the crazy people in our society, best exemplified by this political cartoon.

edited 3rd Oct '15 7:40:45 AM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#102603: Oct 3rd 2015 at 7:40:33 AM

It's an apt comparison.

The only reason Godwin's Law is even a thing is because of people on the internet more concerned with pulling an intellectual GOTCHA than actually discussing the matters at hand. More interested in "winning" the debate than in the actual topic being debated.

That goes both for people who think equating someone to a Nazi is an automatic "I win" card and for the people who go, "Hah! You mentioned Hitler, that means I win."

There's a reason our rules say this:

Logical Fallacies are faulty reasoning, and if an opponent is making a fallacious argument, it may appear reasonable to call them out on it. However, simply calling out the names of fallacies may be seen as obnoxious and obstructs the discussion. Dismissing a post altogether because you believe it contains a fallacious argument is similarly obstructive and rude (you also run the risk of impaling yourself on your own sword). Also beware of calling a fallacy incorrectly. The terms "Ad Hominem" and "Strawman Fallacy", in particular, are frequently misused.

A fallacy is neither subjective nor nebulous. If you've spotted a real fallacy, you should be able to explain why your opponent's argument is incorrect, and this is generally preferable to calling out the name of a fallacy. If you can't explain what's wrong with it, it probably isn't a fallacy.

edited 3rd Oct '15 7:47:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#102604: Oct 3rd 2015 at 8:12:24 AM

Except the US is nowhere near the conditions the Weimar was that allowed Hitler to rise to power, Hitler speeches didn't appeal to the poor, the communists in Germany did, Hitler speeches appealed to the German industrialists and the German middle class, which were scared shitless of a Russian style communist revolution. His blaming of the Jews isn't equivalent to blaming Mexican immigrants which has the whole rhetoric built around "DEY TOOK OUR JERBS! DEY STEAL WELFUR!", Hitler blamed the Jews for manipulating the finance and hyper inflation during the Weimar Republic and introducing "depraved" ideals allowing communists to set foothold in Germany. Hitler also used his personal militia to harass and eliminate opposition members as far as I know Trump doesn't have uniformed hit squads killing repds and dems alike.

If ATB claimed Trump had all the characteristics of populist dictators, I'd agree. Blaming all the woes on a few groups, chattering to some minorities or appealing to the fears of the majority while sucking up to the elites and subscribing to a conspiracy theorist thinking to justify his actions isn't exclusive to Hitler.

It is in fact the playbook of every single dictator and populist leader, from the Lenin to Stalin, from Kim Jong Un to Mao, from the Perón dictatorship in Argentina to the Military Junta in Brazil, to the Francisco and Mussolini dictatorships in Europe and from Saddam to the Khomeini.

I really hate ATB for making an column that made people defend Trump.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#102605: Oct 3rd 2015 at 8:17:38 AM

Hitler also lost elections twice(against an opponent who chose to run just so Hitler would not win) and was appointed in what might as well be a freak accident, rather than elected into office. Contrary to the sadly popular opinion, democracy did not lead into Hitler.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#102606: Oct 3rd 2015 at 8:27:43 AM

[up][up]

Funny you should mention that, because The Daily Show with Trevor Noah made a direct comparison between Trump and various African "Presidents"... including Gadhaffi.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#102607: Oct 3rd 2015 at 8:33:35 AM

[up][up]No one says that. Almost everyone mentions the dirty tricks he and the party would pull to achieve their victory, as a prime example of gaming the system.

That said, they increased their margins every time the lost, so what you say is also not quite true.

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#102608: Oct 3rd 2015 at 8:56:26 AM

I must say that, while I am having a lot of fun watching the Republican elections from afar, the perspective of someone like Trump being elected president really scares me. The most powerful army in the world led by a lunatic...that could become a nightmare.

GWB already screwed the Middle East in ways that will take decades to fix (and whose consequences, incidentally, mostly concern European countries, not the American soil), so a man like Trump could take cataclysmic decisions.

edited 3rd Oct '15 8:56:45 AM by Julep

MeetTheNewBoss I'm Ruthless. from The Same As The Old Boss Since: May, 2015 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
I'm Ruthless.
#102609: Oct 3rd 2015 at 9:14:50 AM

I'm not afraid of Trump now. I may be afraid of Trump in one year.

You claim that God is opressing us, but I see you opressing others without needing a God.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#102610: Oct 3rd 2015 at 9:21:38 AM

The chances of Trump being elected are laughably low, the circus around him that is big.

Besides, the president alone can't do jack shit unless the other two powers agree, there are some executive orders and other stuff the president can do on his own but there isn't anything stopping the other branches from declaring "fuck that" and overruling or ignoring it.

Inter arma enim silent leges
DrStarky Okay Guy from Corn And Pig Land Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Okay Guy
#102611: Oct 3rd 2015 at 9:32:17 AM

I heard somewhere that Trump would need like 47% of the Latinx vote to win the general election and with his immigration rhetoric I'd be surprised he gets 47 Latinx people to vote for him.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#102612: Oct 3rd 2015 at 9:57:10 AM

[up][up] With a conservative controlled Congress that may not be as big an obstacle as it sounds. That could give him 2/3 easily.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#102613: Oct 3rd 2015 at 9:59:06 AM

[up][up]Honestly, that just makes me wonder what the circumstances would be for even one Latino to vote for him. Maybe they'd be filled with racial self-loathing?

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#102614: Oct 3rd 2015 at 10:08:49 AM

It shouldn't be that unusual. There are plenty of women that gladly vote for Republicans.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#102615: Oct 3rd 2015 at 10:11:22 AM

The Republicans don't all like him either, so even control of congress means nothing.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#102616: Oct 3rd 2015 at 10:14:22 AM

The comparison works, in the end Trump's only hope for power is to be appointed undemocratically, fake a terrorist attack and then suspend democracy.

So yeah, looks pretty unlikely to me.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#102617: Oct 3rd 2015 at 10:29:19 AM

I'm actually sort of hoping Trump gets the nomination, since it would result in a slam dunk victory for whoever the Democrats nominate, and might serve as a wake up call for the Republicans about pandering to the bigot vote.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#102618: Oct 3rd 2015 at 10:38:12 AM

Perón dictatorship in Argentina
Perón was democratically elected (fraud, or allegations of such notwithstanding). He wasn't a dictator, he was "just" a fascist authoritarian president, though he was minister of economy (or a similar position, I don't remember exactly) in a military coup before his first presidency.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#102620: Oct 3rd 2015 at 12:32:29 PM

It's kind of hard to distinguish where democracy ends and dictatorship begins. Take leaders of former Soviet states. Some, like Lukashenka and Aliyev went through an election after the Union's fall, but have been in power for 20+ years since. Putin takes pains to follow the letter of the constitution (if not its spirit), Nazarbayev in Kazakhstan rolls elections, but he was elected before the country was independent, ditto Uzbekistan's Karimov (who is yet more aggressive with political enemies). Only Niyazov in Turkmenistan, and his successor, really count (the guy renamed days of the week and forced doctors in the country to recant the Hippocratic Oath and swear loyalty to him alone).

Even guys like Omar al-Bashir go through periodic elections.

MeetTheNewBoss I'm Ruthless. from The Same As The Old Boss Since: May, 2015 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
I'm Ruthless.
#102621: Oct 3rd 2015 at 12:38:51 PM

Fraudulent elections aren't elections.

Democracy isn't the best system of government anyway. Is just the least worse.

"Since when has mankind ever known what it needs?"

You claim that God is opressing us, but I see you opressing others without needing a God.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#102622: Oct 3rd 2015 at 12:53:19 PM

[up][up]There's a lot between democracy and dictatorship. For example, in a true dictatorship, there shouldn't even be an oligarchy.

Elections in a dictatorship tend to be a sham (there's no way Kim-Jong Un was elected unanimously by popular vote).

In addition, a true democracy can theoretically be just as authoritarian as a dictatorship in theory (which is why the US, for example, has a constitution. Even if a policy is popular, it still could be unconstitutional and therefore illegal).

Leviticus 19:34
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#102623: Oct 3rd 2015 at 1:13:06 PM

This seems a bit too general for this thread. Perhaps a democracy and government thread (unless it already exists) would be better....

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#102624: Oct 3rd 2015 at 4:05:50 PM

"The executive power in our government is not the only, perhaps not even the principal, object of my solicitude. The tyranny of the legislature is really the danger most to be feared, and will continue to be so for many years to come. The tyranny of the executive power will come in its turn, but at a more distant period." - Thomas Jefferson

[down]Started it up over there, if any are interested. I'm probably just going to lurk.

edited 3rd Oct '15 4:20:20 PM by Artificius

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#102625: Oct 3rd 2015 at 4:09:38 PM

The general politics thread could probably take the topic.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Total posts: 417,856
Top