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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#102201: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:11:00 PM

If the north was the south, things would be the same. The british were not less savage or more savage, really.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#102202: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:15:35 PM

The British had no illusions about what they were doing. They fully embraced their imperialistic ambitions and so did their general public. Unless the US public is fully willing to spend a ton of blood and money occupying a foreign land for long periods of time, you can't emulate the British.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:16:58 PM by nightwyrm_zero

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#102203: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:36:10 PM

Uh. Most people from the U.S are, indeed, currently living in occupied land taken by blood tongue

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102204: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:38:17 PM

[up] She mean in modern times. Also the same applies to Costa Rica and every nation in the western hemisphere, along with Australia, New Zeland, and a bunch of others I forgot.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:39:26 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#102205: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:48:44 PM

Not many of those currently living in US are willing to settle in Syria and displace the natives. Also....I'm a guy, just a big Frozen fan tongue

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#102206: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:54:25 PM

I meant modern times too! And I never said it was not the case of other nations, either.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102207: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:54:56 PM

(The author of this post has been sacked)tongue

edited 29th Sep '15 2:58:42 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102208: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:55:24 PM

[up][up] I suppose it depends on what you define modern as. Personally I think Modern begins at the start of the 20th century.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:55:34 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102209: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:57:17 PM

[up]The 21st century actually. Though I suppose its all relative really.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:01:20 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#102210: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:02:22 PM

I am not sure how it being a "modern" situation or not makes it different though. The people displaced are still alive.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#102211: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:02:28 PM

I'm gonna go ahead and define modern as within my lifetime (last 30 yrs). grin

[up]I mean that most people currently living in the US aren't willing to go to some crappy ME country, displace the natives living there and settle on the land. Hence, not a lot of support for foreign adventures since most don't see a huge benefit to themselves. Pretty much the only motivations left for supporting a war is either fear or idealism/being big damn heroes.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:07:26 PM by nightwyrm_zero

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#102212: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:03:40 PM

Us Brits were not better at this stuff, look at the Palestine-Israel situation, we pretty much created that entire mess out of spite.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102213: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:04:41 PM

[up] But you handled the Malaya emergency well. Plus it took two World Wars to shake your grasp, we lost ours after just one really bad brushfire conflict.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102214: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:04:47 PM

[up][up]The French are at fault too, mucking around in Lebanon and Syria.

Actually from what I've read, the limeys promised the Jews in Palestine a homeland while assuring the Arabs that they would have their independence and curtail jewish immigration in order to get support against the Ottomans.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:09:49 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102215: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:10:35 PM

[up][up][up] They were ordered out by the UN. Also they anticipated the problems Israel would cause, and tried to create an all Arab state, it's just that the flow of refugees proved to great and the Jews had to much sympathy in the aftermath of the war for the policy to be carrier out effectively.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#102216: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:12:21 PM

@Native Jovian - Except the half-assed measures ain't working. What part of that are you not getting? It's creating expectations with our allies, who are getting irritated, it's creating expectations with the Syrians, who have long since given up on us, it fulfills absolutely none of our interests since the war is still going on, people are still getting killed, and now we have a refugee crisis to deal with. Unless you say all that is in our interests, then no. And if it is in our interests, we're part of the problem.

And like Silas said, Obama had to be dragged into Libya (which, once Gaddafi was gone, he promptly neglected to help build back). He's been dragged into Yemen too (all those deaths from Saudi air power are on us, since its our active logistical support making that happen), and even now we're being dragged into Syria rather than leading a credible alternative approach, which is giving Putin political accolades with the US eating the cost. So, like I said before, he's not actually making decisions on a case by case basis. He either gets these lofty goals and then does only symbolic things about it, or is dragged into the conflict by an ally. In neither case does he plan for the aftermath. Obama isn't some visionary man with a plan....he's got too many screw ups in the foreign policy department to legitimately suggest that. He speaks differently than Bush, but the effect is ultimately the same: American international political capital is wasted on nonsense, except where foreigners think Bush is a buffoon, they think Obama naive.

@Jack - One example does not make it a fact to the exclusion of all other views. Come on dude. I've met plenty of people who are perfectly fine with the US.

@ironballs - The bear was roused regardless (and I think, instead of publically declaring someone must go without any intent to help make that happen, they could have worked with Putin behind the scenes to have them reign in Assad...which is what we're doing now, but with the constant anchor of continuing to insist on his departure, which keeps the Russians away from negotiating). And like I said, I know why Obama is doing it, especially before reeelection, but afterwards, he could have. And it's not like he's never made decisions that riled up the public before, so I know he's capable of doing it.

Bear in mind guys, I don't think Obama is always wrong or anything. Cuba and Iran are great examples of diplomacy leading the way. Our reactions to the various conflicts in Africa (barring Libya and Egypt) have also been good. But both of those endeavors had more planning than anything we've done in the Arab world, and the other conflicts didn't have us make crazy pronouncements.

On the British being better - Eh. They have a better track record in terms of post-conflict planning, but not so much in overall objectives.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#102217: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:13:37 PM

I...wasnt actually refering to the Middle East or anything. I am refering to the Trail of Tears and all that. The blood is that of the natives.

And no, I am not saying or advocation for all white people to leave the U.S, that is silly. But it is a consequence history has left us to deal with.

My whole point is the following: We were discussing about what bad stuff the U.S has done, and I only challenged the assertion that "at least they had not spent loads of money and blood to occupy foreign territory for a prolonged amount of time". Not that everyone should go, or that they are terrible.

I am not keen on demonizing anyone. I think everyone is just as guilty. Which is probably why I like porn more than I like people. At least porn is not murderous and genocidal.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102218: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:15:12 PM

[up]Well, not exactly...vore...guro...that kind of thing.

To be fair we mostly bought or conned the natives from their lands, violence not always mandatory.

However, when reading about that time period, I have never had sympathy for the Apache or Commanche, they were practically the poster children for Savage Indians.

Even other Tribes and the Mexicans feared them.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:23:38 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#102219: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:26:11 PM

Which totally justified nearly eradicating them to take over their homes and force them to march several miles in a drawn out genocide. Them being feared doesn't somehow make the things done to them less worse, Sky Cobra. That's one of the most unconvincing arguments I have ever heard for anything regarding Native Americans.

@Aszur; I think the problem came from the fact that everyone else was referring to doing those things right now in the modern day. Pretty sure everyone understood the historical events you were referring to, but they were talking about being willing to do them in the here and now. Which the vast majority of people are not! And given the mess that Britain created I'm not sure why anyone would have called them "better" at intervention. British intervention was basically that which was convenient to them.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102220: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:26:25 PM

[up][up] Honestly I would have behaved the exact same way they did under the circumstances. Mind you I would have reacted to them scalping my citizens the same way the US army did.

[up] The Cherokee were the ones forced on the Trail of Tears, I don't recall any death marches being done to the Apache, though I know many starved on reservation do to them not knowing how to farm, and corrupt Bureau of Indian Affairs officials stealing their supplies.

Edit: I often think of the Palestinians when thinking of some of the Native tribes. Which gives me more sympathy for the Palestinians, and less for the natives.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:29:44 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102221: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:32:22 PM

[up][up]'cept the Apache and Commanche were known for unprovoked attacks, burning settlements, kidnapping or raping of women, attacking isolated homesteads.

So they kinda forefit the moral high ground.

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#102222: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:33:51 PM

Actually even that still gives them the moral high ground over the guys committing genocide.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102223: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:36:19 PM

I find that in their rush to correct our previous history we sometimes go to far in the other direction. For example I remember seeing many a documentary about the French and Indian War criticize the British for repatriating women taken captive in Indian raids, as the women apparently wished to stay with the Natives, one assumes out of Stockholm syndrome. Obviously seeing Yazidi and Christian women and girls captured by ISIS has changed my opinion on the matter.

[up][up] One could argue that their very presence on the American continent counted as a provocation.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:37:04 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#102224: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:42:07 PM

Sky Cobra, I have to pull out the old "two wrongs don't make a right" card here. Because attacks like that justify defending yourself. It doesn't justify doing those exact same things right back. That is quite frankly a disgusting argument to make in this. And, in fact, trying to claim a moral high ground in this subject is basically going to quickly mire you in quicksand; fact of the matter is Native territory was very successfully invaded and those living there displaced and killed.

[up]Less presence and more actively building homes in territory long considered home by many of the natives they had conflict with. Not to mention that even the most benign interactions had a lot of culture conflict over what "owning land" meant.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:43:26 PM by AceofSpades

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102225: Sep 29th 2015 at 3:43:45 PM

[up][up][up]It wasn't genocide, its just that the Indians(mainly the plains tribes) couldn't adapt to Sherman's tactics of total war.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:44:05 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.

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