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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#102101: Sep 28th 2015 at 2:39:08 PM

[up] Sure, but the point of a defensive alliance is defence, not settling old scores.

And the ballistic missile shield was likely suspect because it (like Star Wars before it) threatens to undermine MAD. MAD being undermined is not fun, as from the perspective of the un-shielded power, it looks like the shield is being build to prevent a retaliatory strike after the opposing power launches a first strike.

Or to put it how the Russians woudl have seen it "why would Eastern Europe need a ballistic missile shield unless it was planning to do something to Russia that would result in a ballistic retaliation?"

edited 28th Sep '15 2:40:12 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102102: Sep 28th 2015 at 2:42:26 PM

@Shinera: Oh please, daring to not tow the party line when Moscow invades one of your neighbors is not anything like Pakistan's sponsoring of bloodthirsty terrorists. The comparison is insulting. And yes, they have a right to be a bit paranoid. I mean we talk about Russia's national interests, forgetting that those interests basically mean subjugating these countries, though ether Diplomatic and economic mrauvering, or military force to it's will. And that has worked out so well for them. Poland and the Baltic's are not trying to force Nato into war, they are trying to make sure that NATO won't abandon them should a Russian attack come. And yes the little green men count as a Russian attack.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102103: Sep 28th 2015 at 2:51:20 PM

To add to that Poland is tired of being the door mat of Europe, and they have a vested interest in preserving their sovereignty, having suffered Russia's "enlightened rule" under the Czar, and later the Soviet Union.

Same for the Baltic Countries, they have no desire to be eaten by the Bear again.

NATO seems to be the best option, because individually the Baltics and Poland stand absolutely no chance.

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#102104: Sep 28th 2015 at 2:52:47 PM

Someday I will rule this world and the first thing I am doing is putting you all on timeout and take your splodey toys away from you until you learn to behave.

Ok. well. Not the first thing I am doing. First thing I am going to do is slap a lot of people. Like. A lot.

Then, a nap.

edited 28th Sep '15 2:56:38 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#102105: Sep 28th 2015 at 2:55:42 PM

I don't think Shinra disputes that it's good for those countries to have joined, however from the perspective of maintaining a balance of power between NATO and Russia it's a bad idea, and Shinra seems to be arguing that NATO has a duty to maintain that balance.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#102106: Sep 28th 2015 at 2:56:42 PM

[up][up]What about the Hookers and Blow?

edited 28th Sep '15 2:56:54 PM by Ekuran

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102107: Sep 28th 2015 at 3:03:14 PM

[up][up]NATO's duty is to protect its members against threats, I don't remember reading anything about maintaining a balance of power.

[up]Would they happen to be 10k$ a night hookers?

edited 28th Sep '15 3:04:35 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#102108: Sep 28th 2015 at 3:04:34 PM

[up] It may not have a legal duty but it could be argued that it has a moral one, simply because upsetting the balance of power is a good way to bring about conflict and conflict is bad.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102109: Sep 28th 2015 at 3:15:13 PM

[up]It could also be argued Russia has done more to upset the balance of power lately than NATO has. Like the annexation of Crimea, and the backing of the seperatists in Ukraine.

edited 28th Sep '15 3:16:19 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#102111: Sep 28th 2015 at 3:58:02 PM

[up] That directly affects me. Goddamn. What is driving the impasse?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#102112: Sep 28th 2015 at 3:58:09 PM

@Azsur - I tried.

@Silas - Seems like they don't get it.

@Jack - No, Poland and the Baltics thinks NATO needs to really go to war for a country that IS NOT IN NATO and does everything it can in its power (short of unilaterally go to war itself, since its not quite that stupid) to make that happen. That it's faltering is more because Western Europe realizes thats a stupid idea rather than lack of effort on its part.

NATO already protects these nations. Russia has not threatened them, let alone tried anything. And this before the wasteful sabre-rattling. That they did something to Ukraine is irrelevant because again, UKRAINE IS NOT IN NATO.

Further, these particular nations were at the forefront of encouraging the Maidan before all the Ukraine nonsense even started, nevermind the fact that when it comes to oppression, their hands are also stained, so DO PLEASE stop portraying Eastern Europe like innocent helpless little lambs.

@Skycobra - Ukraine is not part of NATO and was already under Russian sway. That doesn't affect the Balance of power in Russia's favor or against NATO's favor. And as I said before, there was a lot of instigation behind the scenes by Poland and the Baltics behind that endeavor as well. So no, saying Russia started it, therefore NATO is absolved is an argument of the naive.

Poland can be tired of being a doormat. So can the Baltics. That was what becoming a NATO member was about. For self defense (and sarcasm about Russian rule is funny if not for the fact that Eastern Europe ain't much better except on paper). NOT to use said membership as a way to go on the offensive and thus increase military liabilities for nations with whom Russia has no quarrel (and vice versa).

And finally yes, NATO has a moral obligation not to instigate a conflict for its own sake. There are arguments to be made whether NATO even needs to exist post-Cold War. I agree that it does, but only with a severely amended charter. And increasingly, I'm not so sure Eastern Europe can be part of it, simply because the overall strategic interests of the two sides differ. Might mean Poland needs to look into nukes perhaps, and certainly the Visegrad Group could become its own organization, but this use of a defensive alliance for essentially offensive purposes needs to stop.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#102113: Sep 28th 2015 at 4:00:05 PM

God dammit.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102115: Sep 28th 2015 at 4:09:48 PM

[up][up][up] The instant you stop doing the same with Russia.

Edit: And I have yet to see any evidence that Poland and the Baltic's created Maiden. Unless you count showing how successful one can be when breaking away from Russian influence counts.

[up] Has the governor given any indication as to who or what he will raise taxes on?

edited 28th Sep '15 4:15:09 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
AngelicBraeburn from Eccentric California Since: Jan, 2015
#102116: Sep 28th 2015 at 4:30:14 PM

[up]

Wolf wanted the Legislature to approve a $33.8 billion budget, which included a severance tax on natural gas drillers and increases to income and sales taxes, plus taxes on a host of currently untaxed items.

Here is a list of the untaxed items and services that Wolf wants to tax.

GENERAL/PERSONAL ITEMS

Candy and gum. Personal hygiene products. Newspapers. Magazines. Non-prescription drugs. Caskets and burial vaults. Flags. Textbooks. Catalog and direct mail advertising.

OTHER ITEMS

Airline catering. Commission. Horses. Construction of memorials. Uniform commercial code filing fees. Investment metal bullion and investment coins. Cable television.

SERVICES

Transportation. Motion picture and video industries. Other financial investment activities. Real estate agent and broker services. Legal services. Specialized design services. Scientific research and development services. Advertising services. Other professional services. Employment services. Business support services. Travel arrangement services. Other support services. Waste collection. High education. Home health care services. Other ambulatory health care services. Nursing and residential care facilities. Social assistance (including child day care). Performing arts. Spectator sports. Museums, Historical Sites and similar institutions. Amusement and recreation industries. Recreational vehicle parks and recreational camps. Personal care services. Death care services. Dry cleaning and laundry services. Other personal services.

edited 28th Sep '15 4:42:35 PM by AngelicBraeburn

The artist formally known as Deviant Braeburn
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#102117: Sep 28th 2015 at 4:31:38 PM

Who said that Poland and such created Maiden? I thought the accusation was that after Crimea and such they started pushing for an aggressive EU/NATO policy towards Russia.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#102118: Sep 28th 2015 at 4:43:44 PM

I thought that Maidan was an evil CIA/Nazi/Space Pirate plot?

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102119: Sep 28th 2015 at 4:46:09 PM

[up][up][up]I can see why some might have a problem with that.

I'm curious as to how taxing all that is a good idea, sales taxes bleed you dry.

You'd have better luck squeezing blood out of turnips.

edited 28th Sep '15 4:50:26 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#102120: Sep 28th 2015 at 4:49:31 PM

Ugh. Sales taxes are regressive. Someone needs to tell Wolf that. He's supposed to be a Democrat.

edited 28th Sep '15 4:49:46 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#102121: Sep 28th 2015 at 5:06:51 PM

Doesn't the sales taxes punish the low income consumer bases?

Why the fuck would you raise them?

Inter arma enim silent leges
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#102122: Sep 28th 2015 at 5:08:56 PM

Stupidity

Oh really when?
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#102123: Sep 28th 2015 at 5:13:08 PM

It seemed like a good idea at the time?

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#102124: Sep 28th 2015 at 5:14:49 PM

Is he hanging out with my president? It is something Dilma totally would do.

Inter arma enim silent leges
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#102125: Sep 28th 2015 at 5:16:21 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Because raising other taxes is to politically difficult. Also it can be used to punish purchases that the state finds to be unhealthy or immoral, such as the taxes on junk food, alcohol, and cigarettes.

[up] I thought Dilma was all about helping the little guy against the big bad rich? Why would she need to raise sales taxes.

edited 28th Sep '15 5:17:47 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

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