TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#100777: Sep 15th 2015 at 1:59:43 PM

Angelus Nox: Continuing a previous conversation, there are certainly parts of the United States (and other countries) where going unarmed outside your home is an invitation to become a victim of crime, but the cause of that situation is not the availability or lack of weapons, but rather economic and political inequality. Solve those and you'd solve the need for the weapons.

Also, I should point out that going armed in those environments is usually the quickest way to get targeted by police for "enhanced law enforcement", meaning beatings, false imprisonment, and sometimes outright murder. That applies in the U.S. as well as elsewhere.

In none of these situations will carrying solve the underlying problems, even if it may add a modicum of personal safety under certain circumstances.

edited 15th Sep '15 2:09:03 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#100778: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:02:04 PM

Furthermore, even at best, all carrying a weapon does is mean that the victim of a given crime is someone else.

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100779: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:18:51 PM

[up][up] Why does there need to be a reason anyway?

People don't always need a reason to commit a crime. They do it just because they want to.

edited 15th Sep '15 2:20:13 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Mopman43 Since: Nov, 2013
#100780: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:22:03 PM

Well, statistics wise I expect the majority of people do it because they feel a genuine need to; not everyone is one of those serial killers on Criminal Minds.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#100781: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:22:08 PM

Those people are few and far between almost to the point of nonexistence.

Nothing in this world is random and nothing exists in a vacuum.

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#100782: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:22:35 PM

[up][up][up]Er, no. I'm not sure how many criminals you've interviewed, but almost every crime has a proximate motive. Those can vary widely, but poverty and inequality are big indicators. They are also indicators for the proximate factors, such as drug use and family instability.

The core motives for the vast majority of crimes are money and anger, with mental illness as a distant third or fourth. Sex is another, but I'd wager you are not speaking from the perspective of a female carrying a weapon to defend herself against rape.

edited 15th Sep '15 2:29:01 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100783: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:34:25 PM

[up]Nope, just trying to figure why a motive is necessary.

Say what you will, but nothing or nobody is forcing them to kill someone just for twenty bucks.

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#100784: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:36:01 PM

You sound like a person who really needs to do some independent research to understand what they are talking about. Criminals are not archetypal forces of chaos and evil; they are mainly ordinary people who have been forced to make difficult choices, or who made one or two poor choices that locked them into a destructive path.

Even in the case of the drug-addled teen who knifes you for his latest fix, he got that way somehow. He didn't come out of the womb as a petty killer. Treating them as things is exactly the mentality that leads to our fixation on guns as the solution to crime.

edited 15th Sep '15 2:38:33 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mopman43 Since: Nov, 2013
#100785: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:39:38 PM

Well, realistically speaking, every criminal started out as a non criminal; every criminal had a first crime they committed.

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100786: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:43:24 PM

[up][up]They are from a certain point of view.

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Mopman43 Since: Nov, 2013
#100787: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:44:42 PM

And that point of view doesn't often help matters.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#100788: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:45:07 PM

Criminals don't do anything for no reason. That's some Hollywood bullshit.

Furthermore, that's exactly the line of thinking that leads to minorities getting shot in the back of the head. They're not sympathetic human beings in a bad situation, they're criminals with no motive or sense of human morality.

Don't buy into it.

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#100789: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:51:12 PM

There are lots of firsts in life: first steps, first date, first kiss, first chocolate cheesecake, first criminal violation... apparently one of those places the Mark of the Beast upon you, making you fair game to be shot down by a vigilante citizen. I am quite certain that at some point in my life I did something that could have generated a criminal charge. Am I now to be stripped of my due process rights because you felt threatened by me?

The reason we have a justice system is precisely because ordinary people are not permitted to decide who is guilty of a crime and administer summary punishment.

edited 15th Sep '15 2:52:49 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#100790: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:56:46 PM

I blame Batman. Its constant assertion that criminals are like the Joker, absurd bowls of evil and darkness "because shut up". And its constant failure to argue Batman's point with any intelligence. There are countless of good arguments on why Batman shouldn't kill. But I'm yet to see a Batman story that explores at least one.

Mopman43 Since: Nov, 2013
#100791: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:58:31 PM

I'd wager considerably we could trace the thought of criminals as being lesser quite a ways farther back than Batman.

Luminosity Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
#100792: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:59:11 PM

Yes.

But I hold an unreasonable personal bias against Batman.

So I blame Batman.

[down] I despise Batman more or less. But Batman has shockingly little to do with the U.S. politics, so that'd be off-topic.

edited 15th Sep '15 3:12:23 PM by Luminosity

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100793: Sep 15th 2015 at 2:59:41 PM

[up][up][up][up]Only if you try to assault or rob me, or break into my house, and I happen to own a gun, I won't have any sympathy when I drop you where you stand pilgrim.

[up]Batman is awesome, well except for Nu52, I like his pre-52 incarnation better.

edited 15th Sep '15 3:02:02 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Mopman43 Since: Nov, 2013
#100794: Sep 15th 2015 at 3:00:52 PM

So you bring up John Wayne? Lovely actor, but he was a dick.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#100795: Sep 15th 2015 at 3:01:01 PM

And that, ladies and gentleman, is why gun culture is a problem in America.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100796: Sep 15th 2015 at 3:06:06 PM

[up][up]I just watched a string of John Wayne films. so yeah...

But in all seriousness, If I'm about to be robbed or someone breaks into my house, and it comes down to my life/my family's lives or his, I'm gonna choose mine. Plus, there ain't no way in hell I'm gonna let you run off with my wallet/phone or walk out that door or window with my TV or Xbox.

edited 15th Sep '15 3:09:03 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#100797: Sep 15th 2015 at 3:09:02 PM

Nearly all robbers have no intention of harming anyone. They're just desperate people in need and have no intention of escalating to violence - but will defend themselves if the target escalates. When a mugger or robber shoots someone, it's usually because that person lunged at them.

Not to mention that house robberies are super-rare. If someone's going to walk out the door with your TV or Xbox, he's trying to do it when you're not home. Burglars rarely stick around once caught red-handed.

Similarly, a lot of break-ins are just homeless people looking for a place to crash. By all means, call the police, kick them out, etc. but there's no reason to start murdering folks.

In all of the scenarios you've described, the only person in any danger of killing someone without due cause is you. It really shouldn't count as self-defense if your life was never in danger to begin with.

edited 15th Sep '15 3:11:59 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#100798: Sep 15th 2015 at 3:12:30 PM

The guy stealing your TV isn't armed and doesn't wanna even see you.

That's a good way to rack up extra charges real quick. You hit a house in minutes at most. In and out and never come back.

Oh really when?
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100799: Sep 15th 2015 at 3:14:07 PM

The point stands, you break into my house, and all bets are off.

Yeah in and out and never come back, that's why the jerk who robbed my Aunt came back to her house twice, once to steal her money jar, and the second to steal her grandmothers jewelry.

In the same day.

edited 15th Sep '15 3:16:58 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#100800: Sep 15th 2015 at 3:16:37 PM

Why not kick them out at gun point? Or use the possibility of the gun as some sort of deterrent in the first place? A criminal isn't going to rob a house they know has a gun owner inside. They'll move on and rob someone else, and nobody will get hurt.

I have very little sympathy for burglars who get shot from an ethical standpoint, though I can see why from a societal standpoint shooting burglars might pose problems.

Leviticus 19:34

Total posts: 417,856
Top