TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#100276: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:20:20 PM

But that would mean all those darkies would be able to vote and we can't have that now can we?

Oh really when?
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#100277: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:21:44 PM

Vandro, that's because that's not what voter ID laws are. Voter ID is requiring voters to have one of a very narrow and specific types of photo ID with them in order to vote. It is has nothing at all to do with registering voters.

edited 9th Sep '15 2:23:02 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#100278: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:23:41 PM

I operate on principles, not motivations...

I operate on Pepsi and the desire for a long restful sleep which never seems to come.

'mericans however run on an insane principle of fear, apocalypse, and freedom for the sake of freedom. It is insane for you and me to understand how could they fear a universal ID, but...it is the most normal thing for them.

They cray cray

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#100279: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:29:03 PM

Since driver's licenses (and, less commonly, "walker's IDs" — photo identification given out in lieu of a driver's license) are official ID for almost all government-related purposes, DMVs therefore double as points of issue for official photo ID. They also collect voter registration information, register organ donors, and similar miscellaneous functions.

To shut them down means that you need to provide alternative facilities to achieve all of those functions.

Such as by post, online, or at Post Offices? Then again, voter registration here is something largely administered by local Councils.

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#100280: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:31:14 PM

[up] Let's be clear about what we are discussing. Official government-issued ID is not directly related to registering to vote. It can be, and in a sane world would be, but is not necessarily.

"Voter ID" is a gotcha phrase. If one needs ID to vote, then said ID is, by definition, a voter ID, but one does not (in a sane system) get ID issued specifically for the purpose of voting.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#100281: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:32:01 PM

What y'all really need is some jesus.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#100282: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:33:00 PM

For what it's worth I also think using I Ds at the polls is a good idea. I just don't think it should be done until I Ds are mandatory for people of voting age.

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100283: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:36:52 PM

@Aszur: We're not crazy, We're Americans. Its eveyone else who is crazy.tongue

edited 9th Sep '15 2:41:05 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#100284: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:43:14 PM

In a sane system:

  • All individuals who reach a specified age (the least of the ages where they may vote, sign contracts, emancipate, hold a job, etc.) automatically and without charge receive a government-issued photo ID, valid for all identification purposes within their country of residence.
  • The issuance of said ID automatically acts as registration to vote, or pre-registration if they are not of voting age.
  • If their voting circumstances change, such as by moving, becoming ineligible through incapacity or felony, etc., those changes are recorded and are accessed by presenting their ID. No additional documents should be required.
  • Lost, stolen, or damaged ID may be replaced via simple application process, without requiring lengthy waits at a service office.

edited 9th Sep '15 2:44:05 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100285: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:45:21 PM

[up]Ideally yes, but the world we live in is far from ideal.

edited 9th Sep '15 2:48:41 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#100286: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:48:03 PM

Basically. Said ID should also function as a Driver's License if you've passed the test. Unfortunately mandatory I Ds make us fascists so that will never happen.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#100287: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:56:41 PM

There are a few more problems with national ID.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#100288: Sep 9th 2015 at 2:57:01 PM

  • All individuals who reach a specified age (the least of the ages where they may vote, sign contracts, emancipate, hold a job, etc.) automatically and without charge receive a government-issued photo ID, valid for all identification purposes within their country of residence.
  • The issuance of said ID automatically acts as registration to vote, or pre-registration if they are not of voting age.
  • If their voting circumstances change, such as by moving, becoming ineligible through incapacity or felony, etc., those changes are recorded and are accessed by presenting their ID. No additional documents should be required.

I have all this.

Many advocacy groups and individual opponents of the Real ID Act believe that having a Real ID-compliant license may become a requirement for various basic tasks. Thus a January 2008 statement by ACLU of Maryland says: "The law places no limits on potential required uses for Real I Ds. In time, Real I Ds could be required to vote, collect a Social Security check, access Medicaid, open a bank account, go to an Orioles game, or buy a gun. The private sector could begin mandating a Real ID to perform countless commercial and financial activities, such as renting a DVD or buying car insurance. Real ID cards would become a necessity, making them de facto national I Ds". However, in order to perform many of those tasks, government-issued identification is already required (e.g., two forms of ID – usually a driver's license, passport, or Social Security card – are required by the Patriot Act in order to open a bank account).[87]

All this criticisms reads to me as sane measures.

edited 9th Sep '15 3:02:24 PM by vandro

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#100289: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:06:01 PM

There are a few more problems with national ID.

And they are ridiculous.

The fact one argument is "THE GUV' MINT WOULD WUNT MUH ID FER ME TA BUY A GUN" is enough to raise eyebrows. The bureaocratic and administrative nightmare the inter state crap causes is more than enough excuse to warrant a U.S-wise ID card, and that is without going into the benefits.

"COMPANIES COULD START MAKING IT A REQUIREMENT" is also ridiculous. It is something that states and even federal law could very easily tell the companies to not do. By law. The arguments are ridiculous because they are things that nations with national ID cards do not suffer.

More money is lost due to NOT having an ID card than there is by having it. Imagine you are moving from oklahoma to washington. Now you need documents, time and paper from administrative duties to constant your works in the state so that the other state can move those to THEIR format. Now picture that if there was an easy corss referential number that allowed each state to have its own bloody format but something that allows them to share info.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#100290: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:11:04 PM

The argument most likely to be made when not speaking to the lowest common denominator would be that it takes a right away from the states. Not saying I agree with that argument, but it's that line of discussion that will make things difficult.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#100291: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:11:22 PM

Part of the worry about REAL ID is the fact that we don't have a solution for identity theft right now and linking everything to one ID is just going to make that worse.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#100292: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:13:16 PM

How would it make it worse? These I Ds we're talking about would have photos on them.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#100293: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:21:31 PM

Part of the worry about REAL ID is the fact that we don't have a solution for identity theft right now and linking everything to one ID is just going to make that worse.

I am not sure if you are stating an argument for/against a national identity document, so if I seem argumentative it is just to expose my point, not to be confrontative. I am sorry if I seem such.

But. Look in your pocket. If there is a debit or credit card in there, there is a single thing that links your entire bank account to you.

Why is this different from a national ID?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#100294: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:35:00 PM

Becuz da gubmint's evul an' wants to take mah guns an' gib mah jerb an' wife to ILLEGAL MEXICANS.

Though, there are some more reasonable reasons than hating government, such as the fact that a single security breach for a unified national ID could compromise more people's ID than any bank having the same happen would.

But a lot of it seems to be of the "Universal ID is a step to [taking our guns/implementing a cyberpunk dystopia/selling Americans to the Chinese to pay America's debts/part of the Reptilian Illuminati Mole-Men's plot to run the entire world from the shadows]"

edited 9th Sep '15 3:39:02 PM by Balmung

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100295: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:42:01 PM

Plus it is the US government. They couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

[up]Or so the Tinfoil Hat brigade says.

edited 9th Sep '15 3:42:54 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#100296: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:56:50 PM

A national ID would not increase the basic risk of identity theft occurring. In fact, it would reduce it, as multi-factor authentication would become orders of magnitude simpler to manage with only one ID document instead of dozens.

It would increase the potential data exposure, as more of your personal information would be attached to it. It would make detection simpler, as any attempt to hijack it would become immediately visible the next time you used it, which would be very soon. Remediation would be easier as you wouldn't have to contact a billion companies or sort through piles of call-in numbers.

The scope of a breach would be potentially higher, but governments can direct far more investment that any individual company into security and its agents have no conflict of interest when it comes to bottom line and profit management. Plus, breaches in private companies are so difficult to contain largely because the scope is so variable. With a national database, it's either everyone or nobody, and if everyone is compromised, you axiomatically know which data to trust and which not to trust.

edited 9th Sep '15 3:59:39 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#100297: Sep 9th 2015 at 3:57:18 PM

[up][up] It's not tinfoil hat when similar breaches happen to credit card companies at least once a year.

You'd still have to do remediation through a billion numbers because none of those companies is going to cede power to the feds. It's just going to make it a billion and one numbers you need to call.

When dealing with an identity theft situation, right now the government gives 0 fucks and will do nothing to help you. How will REAL ID change that?

edited 9th Sep '15 4:00:11 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#100298: Sep 9th 2015 at 4:00:29 PM

You'd still have to do remediation through a billion numbers because none of those companies is going to cede power to the feds.
That's a relatively simple matter to resolve. You force them.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#100299: Sep 9th 2015 at 4:00:35 PM

[up][up]I was talking about the second half of that post.

edited 9th Sep '15 4:01:36 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#100300: Sep 9th 2015 at 4:01:15 PM

[up][up] How? We can't even force them to pay their taxes or pay their employees or obey laws.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Total posts: 417,856
Top