TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#99776: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:10:19 PM

[up]The Ayatollahs weren't much better.

Yeah they kinda were, they allowed religious freedom, allowed at least an approximation of democracy, spent money on the people instead of themselves, massively reduced the amount of oppression and suppression.

In the end the people who imposed a brutal dictatorship on a people simply because they wanted access to their own natural resources, does not get to determine how 'bad' that brutal dictatorship was.

And Iran if given half the chance would attack Israel, it's no secret that they hate them and want to wipe them out or that they hate the United States

Your factual basis for this assumption is what? That's the Israel thing I mean, the hating the US is totally true, and also pretty justified on the part of Iran. The Iranian government certainly doesn't like the Israli one, but the idea that it would happily destroy itself just to destroy Israel, that's kinda an assumption that's lacking in factual backing.

Edit:

And you've edited...

they were worse

No they really weren't. Look up some of the things the dictatorship we imposed did, they far surpass what has been done since the revolution.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:12:43 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#99777: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:14:56 PM

The Ayatollahs have said they want to wipe Israel off the map. The Ayatollahs have also said nuclear weapons are haram and thus they will not acquire them. Randomly deciding which statement is true has no basis in anything but bias.

Going by what the Ayatollahs say is about as useful as going by what any national leadership says (i.e. not at all).

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#99778: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:19:57 PM

So what sort of power do the Ayatollahs have exactly? Before a couple weeks ago, it seemed to me a bit like they ran a puppet republic in plain sight, and now they strike me as functionally similar to the British monarch, but with a few extra and deceptively sharp teeth.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:21:23 PM by Artificius

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99779: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:21:12 PM

If you want to be truly blunt, Iran has an entirely justified fear that the United States will decide, one day, to march an army across its borders to "install a democracy". Viewed in that light, acquiring nuclear capability is pure self-defense.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#99780: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:21:24 PM

[up][up]They basically are collectively taking the place of the Shah, with more power to the parliament than what existed under the Shah.

[up]Israel and Pakistan (and possibly Saudi Arabia) come first in terms of worries, but yes, that is also true.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:22:10 PM by FFShinra

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#99781: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:21:27 PM

They can easily both be true, they want to wipe Israel off the map but wouldn't do via nuclear weapons (as that would involve them getting nuked in retaliation).

They can also both be false, simply being a pandering move to satisfy the desire for an enemy that everything can be blamed on combined with a pandering move to calm the fear of the country engaging in a nuclear arms race.

They can even both be mailable, with Israel's destruction being wanted but not at a massive cost and the existence of Israel being something that Iran will roll with even if it doesn't particularly like it. Nuclear weapons being considered a bad thing that should not be acquired but the possibility of getting them being something that maybe is okay as long as it's done to scare other countries from deciding to destroy Iran.

Likewise any combination of the three can also work.

[up]X3 Pretty much a very powerful constitutional monarch, the troublesome power actually isn't the supreme leader, it's the guardian council (who have to approve anyone seeking office), the revolutionary guard and the other elements of the deep state, now much of the deep state positions are appointed by the Supreme leader, but he can't relay screw with them without risking upsetting those elements. The supreme leader has a lot of nominal power and does use some of it, but he's limited by how much he can do without breaking his appearance of neutrality and putting at risk the entire system.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:25:22 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#99782: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:22:49 PM

My point being, taking the statements at face value and acting as if thats incontrovertible evidence is foolish. The comment was in support of your argument.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:23:22 PM by FFShinra

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#99783: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:25:48 PM

I know, I was simply trying to expand on your point, not disagree with it.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#99784: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:27:51 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah thats not gonna lead to an arms race or anything, or destabilize the region.

Then again, I suppose the Middle Easts problems would solve themselves then wouldn't it?

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:31:48 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#99785: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:31:34 PM

[up]You have Israel to blame for the arms race. They brought nuclear weapons into the region. They had their reasons, but that comes with consequences.

And Iran already borders Pakistan, which is a Saudi poodle most days. For all the bellyaching about Iran, Washington doesn't do nearly enough about Pakistan, which is now set to have the third largest arsenal of nukes after the US and Russia.

But hey, let's go after the more responsible of the two nations, just because we're still butthurt about the embassy siege. Not like Pakistan has done far worse to us...

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#99786: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:34:37 PM

They've both done shitty things to us. In fact its surprising were allies with Pakistan. Its like being chained to a corpse. They're useless, like Austro-Hungary to Imperial Germany.

Pakistan failed to notice they had a wanted terrorist literally in their backyard.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:38:29 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#99787: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:35:27 PM

[up][up] You mean embassy hostage taking.

@Silaslaw You do know the US never got any of Iraq's oil right? In fact most of it was taken by Chinese companies, therefore I fail to understand how the US could have entered the war for profit.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:37:48 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#99788: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:38:10 PM

[up]Whatever. Yes.

[up][up]And yet Iran isn't nearly as bad and we act like they're gonna be a problem to the US.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#99789: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:38:13 PM

[up]X5 An arms race to what? Breakout capability? And with who? Israel already has nukes so that just leaves the Saudis, who are pretty much under the nuclear umbrella of Pakistan and the US, and may well have deals set up to buy nukes strait from Pakistan in the event of them being needed.

Israel has nukes, the Saudis have rapid breakout capability, the Turks have US nukes stationed there, Iran is the guy lagging behind in this situation.

I mean I guess Egypt might decide to try and get in on things, but that's pretty unlike. This isn't like the old days where we had to worry about Iraq and Libya trying to nuke up.

[up]X3 Pakistan is more the crazy guy you don't kick our your friendship group because as long he's part of the group you have some control over him, you kick him out and he may just set the entire street on fire.

[up]X2 I believe a lot of defence, construction and similar companies makes a tidy profit over Iraq, additionally I believe even though the oil extraction went to Chinease companies the effect of the invasion on the oil market did benefit folks down the chain. Still I will admit that even I don't get the full details, and I study this shit. The point however is that whatever the reasoning for Iraq was, it certainly wasn't WM Ds (what our public was told) or helping the Iraqi people (what Blair and possibly even Bush foolishly believed), as such the U.S lied to its allies to get them into a war that cost them a lot.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:43:03 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#99790: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:41:03 PM

[up]Like I said, the problems would solve themselves. The Middle East would break the record for the world's largest parking lot.tongue

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#99791: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:43:44 PM

[up][up] The Suadi's don't even have a reactor on their territory. Pakistan refused to assist them with Yemen,for fear of Iran suturing up their Shia minority,I highly doubt they'd risk the provoking Tehran even more by giving nukes to Saudi Arabia, let alone the international sanctions that would come with such a move. I'll worry about the Suadi's building a nuke when they can build their own cars.

Edit: Thanks for the info. I admit I still don't understand why we went into Iraq. For the record, while foreign policy victories can be achieved with bad PR, Iraq is most defiantly not an example of such a victory, or really a victory of any sort.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:46:35 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#99792: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:45:10 PM

[up][up]Actually it wouldn't, despite what you might think Middle Eastern countries actually aren't full of nutjobs ready to start a nuclear war the moment they get the chance.

Look Stalin was sane enough to start a nuclear war, with Saddam and Gadaffi gone I don't think any Middle Eastern leader comes close to Stalin levels of crazy, as such the region isn't going to go nuclear any time soon.

[up] They refused to help with Yeman because there the Saudis are on the offensive, it's a very different ball game if the Saudis are on the defensive. Also Pakistan can get pretty big on not listening to the international community when it feels like it. I believe there was actually something a bit ago about the Saudi-Pakistan nuke sharing deal, I'll try and find it if I have the time.

In the end though it doesn't matter, it's not about if Pakistan would share nukes, it about if the Saudis feel secure enough with the friendship of both the US and Pakistan, to not feel the need to develops nukes if Iran goes for breakout capability.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:49:32 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#99793: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:46:04 PM

[up][up][up][up] So Pakistan is basically Zach Galifianakis in The Hangover?

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:47:27 PM by Artificius

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#99794: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:47:31 PM

[up][up] Was Stalin actually crazy? Ruthless defiantly, paranoid certainly, but crazy?

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99795: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:50:58 PM

[up] Being a sociopath does help a lot with running an aggressive nation. "Crazy" is in the eyes of the beholder.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#99796: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:51:37 PM

[up][up][up] I haven't seen that film I'm afraid, for webcomic readers I'd says Pakistan is similar to Belkar from Order of the Stick.

[up][up] Define crazy, he was certainly a lot more unhinged then anyone currently in power in the Middle East, if he was actually crazy probably comes down to how you define crazy.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:51:56 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#99797: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:52:26 PM

[up][up]So does offing everyone who dares to disagree with you.tongue

[up]Never seen that movie or webcomic let alone heard of it.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:54:27 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99798: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:53:03 PM

Hitler was crazy — clinically bug-nuts. Stalin was ruthless. There is a difference: you can count on a ruthless person not to take actions that are blatantly contrary to their self-interest, like starting a nuclear war.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:53:43 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#99799: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:56:17 PM

[up][up] It tends to cost you in the long run though, as Stalin's death, the post-purge problems with the Red Army, Hitler's rampant stupidity being unchecked and leading to him making decisions that lead to the defeated of Nazi Germany, Gadafii's total loss of support during the revolution, and more demonstrate.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#99800: Sep 2nd 2015 at 5:57:10 PM

[up][up]Hitler also had Syphilis and Parkinson's which does wonders for your mental health later on down the line and prolonged use of methamphetamines thanks to his Doctor and I use that term loosely.

edited 2nd Sep '15 5:57:27 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.

Total posts: 417,856
Top