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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99452: Aug 26th 2015 at 11:38:51 AM

To make a political point among tragedy, this is yet another reason why we need better employment policies and better access to mental healthcare.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#99453: Aug 26th 2015 at 11:49:32 AM

[up] Judging by how the guy reacted to being fired, I doubt better employment policies could have kept him at his job.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99454: Aug 26th 2015 at 11:50:51 AM

I was speaking in broad terms. The mental healthcare issue is relevant to this particular case.

edited 26th Aug '15 12:31:30 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#99455: Aug 26th 2015 at 12:47:56 PM

Listening to the radio on the way into work today, I was hearing the extremes on both ends come out on the shooting.

One guy suggested that this was a False Flag Operation arranged by the government to make guns look bad. Kind of casually ignores the fact that we've seen far worse in terms of human cost and haven't done jack shit.

On the opposite end was one guy proposing a novel idea - close down US-based gun manufacturers for 50 years. According to him, this would make current owners far more protective of their guns, which would mean that, as guns are taken off the street as a result of arrests, no new ones would go on the street for criminal use. Obviously untenable, but it tickled my funny bone.

And all that said, we don't even know the full circumstances around this, so I'm partially reserving judgment, especially as people are crying "Bring back insane asylums!" when we have no clue if he was certifiably insane.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99456: Aug 26th 2015 at 12:56:57 PM

Closing down gun manufacturers is not a terrible idea on paper, but would drive the industry underground.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#99457: Aug 26th 2015 at 12:59:56 PM

Well, it's not a terrible idea if your sole aim is to get rid of guns.

If you're trying to keep people who shouldn't have guns from getting them while still allowing everyone else to have them...

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#99458: Aug 26th 2015 at 1:00:25 PM

[up][up] And it wouldn't help the DoD, unless you want them take design and production in-house?

edited 26th Aug '15 1:00:44 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#99459: Aug 26th 2015 at 1:01:26 PM

Has banning things ever gone well on the U.S?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99460: Aug 26th 2015 at 1:09:53 PM

I'm not sure that guns and alcohol are directly comparable in terms of how a Prohibition-style movement would work, but it is indisputably true that a black market would flourish in the vacuum left by manufacturers being shut down.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#99461: Aug 26th 2015 at 1:14:15 PM

[up]

Agreed - not to mention that, like moonshine makers, you know people would attempt to make their own firearms, which would potentially be more lethal.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99462: Aug 26th 2015 at 1:15:07 PM

I suppose the difference is whether I, personally, sympathize with those idiots — and in the hypothetical situation before us, I do not.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#99463: Aug 26th 2015 at 1:15:32 PM

I'd certainly feel much better if weapons manufacturers were nationalized.

We'd get less of Lockheed gouging our defense budget for one.

Oh really when?
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#99464: Aug 26th 2015 at 1:40:54 PM

Is it even Constitutional for the US government to nationalize companies. I know "Bills of Attender" are illegal.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99465: Aug 26th 2015 at 1:45:19 PM

Sure. A bill of attainder is a legislative action finding someone guilty of a felony or treason without trial. Nationalization of a business does not require or imply finding it or its owners guilty of any crime. Legally, I believe it falls under the purview of eminent domain.

edited 26th Aug '15 1:45:57 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#99467: Aug 26th 2015 at 2:16:08 PM

I thought a bill of attainder was something like a law saying "yeah, you're giving that factory to us for free now."

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#99468: Aug 26th 2015 at 2:20:27 PM

Nope. Look it up. Bill of Attainder. Related to attainder: "the legal consequence of judgment of death or outlawry for treason or felony, involving the loss of all civil rights."

edited 26th Aug '15 2:21:11 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#99469: Aug 26th 2015 at 4:38:31 PM

Lockheed is not a firearms manufacturer...

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#99470: Aug 26th 2015 at 4:45:05 PM

[up]They make really, really big bullets and humongous, overly-complex delivery systems for them. wink

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#99471: Aug 26th 2015 at 4:46:23 PM

You'd be dead wrong thinking nationalizing military contractors would result in less expenditure.

More often than not a politician with zero understand of procurement or administration will be in charge and fuck everything up and leaving the tax payer to tank the bill.

Inter arma enim silent leges
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#99472: Aug 26th 2015 at 4:46:45 PM

[up][up]Eh, defense manufacturers then. You know what I mean.

Slimy bastards can't be trusted to hold our troops above their wallets.

[up]I'll take overspending due to incompetence than greed any day.

One is born of stupidity and can be corrected relatively easily, the other is born of malice and will grow like a cancer.

edited 26th Aug '15 4:48:33 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#99473: Aug 26th 2015 at 4:52:36 PM

[up]Not really, that expenditure grown out of stupidity also has the government corruption element behind it.

Can get much worse because for the people running the thing, it would be very easy to divert funds to personal pockets while keeping everything under the radar because the politicians and the people they put in charge answer to no one.

Inter arma enim silent leges
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#99474: Aug 26th 2015 at 5:21:45 PM

I say the best solution would be to beak them up into smaller companies. It would make contracts more competitive. If necessary we could even swallow our pride and buy a few things from the foreign market to show Lockheed and the others that they are not indispensable.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#99475: Aug 26th 2015 at 5:27:25 PM

Okay, let's say we nationalize defense contractors. Money is wasted-WASTED I tells you!-because instead of paying private companies that pay people who work for them, we pay people to work for us directly. Somehow.

So ... this "waste," what does it go into, exactly? What specific items would we be spending money on that we shouldn't be? Because I'll tell you where waste goes for private contractors: into the shareholders who own the company. They only cut down on waste because waste cuts into their profit line. But they can cut down on other things too.

Private industry is very good at cutting down waste, but that's just a side effect of the fact that private industry is very good at cutting down anything that reduces the profit margin.

If you're going to insist that nationalizing defense contractors is a bad idea, you should come up with a more specific story as to how that would be problematic, instead of relying on a "government is dumb" mantra of sorts.


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