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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#98651: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:06:44 PM

[up]X4 But you love a good malapropism.

I'll stop now.

edited 15th Aug '15 12:07:10 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98652: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:10:57 PM

I will never hear the end of this will I[lol]

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#98653: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:18:29 PM

You could be a Rouge Rogue..

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#98655: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:58:31 PM

Thing with Libya is, there was already a civil war underway; with or without U.S. involvement, the country was going to be full of fighting. That's a bit different from Iraq, where the U.S. went in to overthrow a stable (if oppressive) regime and start a civil war.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98656: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:25:41 PM

[up] The Civl war was between Gaddafi loyalists and those who opposed him. The current conflict is between the rebel factions turning on each other.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#98657: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:45:25 PM

It's even more complicated then that. I've been doing some research and very few people from the actual old rebel leadership are still around, the Egypt backed and internationally recognised government has a couple of people (I mean that, I think I found 2) with military ties but that seem to be it. The old political leadership has disappeared. The leadership of the Islamist splinter faction out west seem to all be new and linked to the Muslim Brotherhood, the leadership of the Islamic Rebels out east seem to be new folks. The nomads in the south generally stayed out of the civil war previously and ISIS are the new kids on the block.

And that's before you even get into some towns and places pretty much having no side and running themselves.

edited 15th Aug '15 5:46:19 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98658: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:49:10 PM

Well what happened to them? Were they killed? Exiled?, taking a vacation? Throwing a Libyan pool party?

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#98659: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:50:43 PM

Most of the original rebel leadership had no intention of staying politically active. Or they were already retired from politics before coming back to help.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#98660: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:56:48 PM

No idea, I'm pretty much going off open source stuff here and there seems to have just been no news on most of them after 2011.

A few seem to be abroad, most of them built lives abroad in exile from Gadafii remember, they may feel at home there now. I'm pretty sure that the PM who got kidnapped has now fled the country, though even that's not certain.

Still Shinra is probably right, these people came out of retirement and exile to oversee the end of Gadafii, they managed that and are probably back in retirement.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#98661: Aug 16th 2015 at 6:55:57 PM

Problem with America and the Middle East is that America wants every nation to have a democracy. First of all, why do we think every nation wants our way of government? Second-yes, guys like Saddam and Gaddafi were dictators, but they knew how to keep their people in check until radical Islamic groups and ideas slithered in. The rebels that America says want "democracy" believe in radical Islam and are more than willing to practice it, and rebel because they hate their governments for being secular and non-extremist.

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#98662: Aug 16th 2015 at 7:07:44 PM

[up]That, frankly, is horseshit.

I do agree that not everyone wants (or needs) our exact form of government, but apart from that, that entire sentiment is nonsense.

What the people want is order AND justice. The reason the Islamists get so much support is because they offer both (even if its Draconian) and are egalitarian to boot, while dictatorships often only provide the former while democracies (formed by fiat of the US or by revolt) provide neither (and both provide a shit ton of corruption). The people aren't in love with terrorism or harshness and they don't hate the West on principle...they hate the west for looking down on them, either patronizingly (like a lot of liberals do) or as savages (like a lot of conservatives do) when they don't understand the context of why they are where they are.

edited 16th Aug '15 7:08:02 PM by FFShinra

storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#98663: Aug 16th 2015 at 11:44:28 PM

Even if they don't want democracy per se, people definitely do want more freedom. The problem is that they don't want it quite as much as they want stability (hence Sisi).

Which is understandable if unfortunate. You can't enjoy freedom when you're dead.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#98664: Aug 16th 2015 at 11:54:25 PM

Also, the association between freedom and democracy isn't nearly as strong in places where "democracy" is identified with foreign Western interests.

Saudi women, for example, would mostly rather be allowed to get behind the wheel and drive down to a mixed-sex party while wearing something a little less ridiculous than a full hijab - but I personally doubt that actually adopting a Western liberal democracy would play very well among them. May be wrong here.

edited 16th Aug '15 11:54:37 PM by Ramidel

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#98665: Aug 17th 2015 at 12:42:41 AM

are egalitarian to boot
What?

See Ramidel's post.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#98666: Aug 17th 2015 at 2:11:15 AM

With the US focusing on ISIL and Russia, Kim Jong Un throws temper tantrum, screams "Look at me!" I think he also threatened to TP the White House lawn.

North Korea threatened to "retaliate against the U.S. with tremendous muscle" if it didn't cancel multinational military exercises scheduled to begin Monday. South Korea conducts the yearly exercises, called Ulchi Freedom Guardian, with the United States and other allies "to enhance ... readiness, protect the region and maintain stability on the Korean peninsula," according to a statement from the Korea-U.S. Combined Forces Command. Just as the event itself is annual, so too are the condemnations and threats of retaliation from the reclusive North Korean regime.

"The further Ulchi Freedom Guardian joint military exercises are intensified, the strongest military counteraction the (Democratic People's Republic of Korea) will take to cope with them," a spokesman for North Korea's National Defense Commission (NDC) said Saturday. A State Department official told CNN on Saturday it was aware of the threats. The exercises are transparent, defense-minded and are designed to increase the readiness of South Korea and the region, the State Department official said. "These exercises are a clear demonstration of the U.S. commitment to the alliance," the official said.

While threatening military action is nothing new for the regime (Kim Jong Un told his troops they should be ready to fight a "sacred war" in the days leading up to the exercises in 2012, for example), the rhetoric coming out of Pyongang seems particularly ratcheted-up this time around. "The army and people of the DPRK are no longer what they used to be in the past when they had to counter the U.S. nukes with rifles," the NDC spokesman continued, saying North Korea "is the invincible power equipped with both [the] latest offensive and defensive means unknown to the world..." A state television report repeated the claim that this isn't the same old, ill-equipped North Korea that never could stand up to the United States in the past. In fact, this year, they are threatening to attack the U.S. on its own soil.

"If [the] United States wants their mainland to be safe," said a newswoman for the state TV station, KCNA, "then the Ulchi Freedom Guardian should stop immediately." A former Army general who participated in previous Ulchi exercises said it's nothing more than the bluster of young tyrant who perhaps feels marginalized by more serious foes. "One of the key propaganda goals of the young leader is to just get on the radar of the U.S.," said retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, now a national security analyst for CNN. "With all the other things we're focused on — ISIS, al Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, Russia and Ukraine, etc., Kim Jong Un wants to ensure he grabs attention."

I believe the US response was to yawn, crack open another beer, and turn on the volume on Netflix. tongue

And before I forget ...

Trumps continues campaigning by lying to children, claiming to be super-hero.

A helicopter landed here just after noon on Saturday, causing a short but violent windstorm. Large trees shivered; small ones bent nearly sideways. Dust swirled up from the parking lot, stinging the eyes of the onlookers. The pilot cut the engines. A man got out of the helicopter. He wore white shoes and white khakis with sharp creases and a red baseball cap that said MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. He strolled across the searing asphalt and stood at the edge of a field, where nearly 100 people waited to find out what he would do or say next. "We have quite a few children gonna take rides today," said Donald Trump, billionaire, celebrity, entertainer and Republican candidate for president. "Where are the children? Get them over here."

Half a mile northwest, beyond the railroad tracks and the Laurel Hill Cemetery, the Iowa State Fair proceeded as usual. You could see a cow made of butter or a 711-pound Giant Atlantic Pumpkin. You could eat a bacon-wrapped rib on a stick and drink a 32-ounce Miller Lite while watching a one-man band play and sing "Mustang Sally." You could strap into a ride called Slingshot, whose giant elastic bands would fling you toward the pale blue sky.

But here in the parking lot was something else altogether: a chance to ride in a customized Sikorsky S-76B helicopter with one of the richest and most famous men in America. "I love my kids," said Trump, a 69-year-old grandfather. "Come 'ere."

Taking their cue, nearly 50 children stood behind him on the asphalt as he answered questions about what he would do if elected president. "Under what circumstances would you use a nuclear weapon?" a reporter asked. "I don't even wanna talk about that question. It's a very serious question," he said before expounding on the importance of a strong national defense.

<snip>note 

The Bowman family had driven from the western suburbs to see Trump and his helicopter. Neither David nor Sarah Bowman had resolved to vote for Trump, at least not yet, but they had four little boys, and this chance was too good to miss. Into the helicopter went William, 9; Sean, 6; Brendan, 5; and Henry, who just turned 3. Their mother went with them. Henry got scared just before takeoff and left the aircraft to be with his father. The other boys remained. William brought a Go Pro camera to capture the experience; a clip later wound up on Facebook.

"Mr. Trump," he said, aiming the camera at his benefactor. "Yes," Trump said, pulling on the lapels of his jacket. "Are you Batman?" the boy asked. "I am Batman," Trump said.

edited 17th Aug '15 2:17:54 AM by BlueNinja0

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#98667: Aug 17th 2015 at 2:23:40 AM

He would've gotten more points in my book if his answer had been "I am vengence. I am the night!"

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#98668: Aug 17th 2015 at 3:34:23 AM

Yea the idea that the U.S. wants the entire Middle East to become democratic is provably false. The U.S. has been for a long time one of the biggest enemies of democracy in the Middle East, from Egypt to Saudi Arabi to the Cold War support of Gadafii and the eternal hated of Iran (one of the region's most democratic regimes).

Likewise the idea that the dictators bought stability and were hated for being secular are both bull. The Islamist factions in the Middle East didn't come out of nowhere, they were carefully groomed and cultivated by the dictators while they brutally murdered any moderates. There's a reason Assad has done little to fight ISIS but a lot to pretty much wipe out the Free Syrian Army. It's a con and people are buying it, they want to to think that dictatorship or Islamic terror state are the only two options for the region.

But yeah the stability line is laughable, a country isn't stable when it has a brutal dictator opening his people that every couple of generations will try and rise up. Assad's dad faced a big rebellion that tried to bring democracy, he crushed it brutally and yet here we are today. The dictatorships can crush individual rebellions all they want, they will never fix the problem causing the rebellions because to do so removes their reason for existing and is impossible anyway. That kind of generational wack-a-mole isn't stability, it's a band aid that keeps falling off.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#98669: Aug 17th 2015 at 5:13:14 AM

[up]

Iran (one of the region's most democratic regimes).

What?

Anyways, back on-topic: Have there been corruption cases in Capitol Hill?

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#98670: Aug 17th 2015 at 5:17:51 AM

[up] Not enough.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
BAFFU Since: Dec, 2012
#98672: Aug 17th 2015 at 6:08:37 AM

[up][up][up]

It is by far the most democratic state in the region.

Which is like being the tallest midget but it could be worse.

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#98673: Aug 17th 2015 at 6:11:30 AM

So I've got a coworker on another shift. Last night, the turnover conversation broached politics, specifically the upcoming presidential election. After a lifetime of Alaska, he seemed jaded. I told him that he should join the Democrats and vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary, assuming Bernie makes it that far, since he agreed with him on just about everything and the primaries are closed in this state. "Well (no), he's radical."

Scrawling through the Wikipedia on the guy, pages of Google image memes, and Politifact produced nothing he found either objectively or subjectively extreme about the senator. I pushed the issue (Dude, he doesn't seem extreme on anything except sticking it to the man), and he seemed more distraught by the idea of joining the Democrats, since they're anti-gun and he has a certain Alaskan identity, than by Bernie Sanders himself.

What can be done about this political tribalism in general? The conversation was long, and I had to assure him that a vote for Bernie in the primary didn't necessarily mean that he'd have to vote for Hillary in the general if she won.

edited 17th Aug '15 6:20:40 AM by Artificius

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98674: Aug 17th 2015 at 6:33:29 AM

Who's his alternative, though?

Unfortunately, there are a lot of single-issue voters: people who hook their tribal identity to one specific aspect of a party's platform (like being pro-gun, in this case) and ignore everything else.

You could tell your friend that there are lots of pro-gun Democrats and that even under the most "extreme" circumstances, nobody is going to take away his hunting rifle.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#98675: Aug 17th 2015 at 6:39:15 AM

From what I've been getting of the gun community is that they are afraid of a new Clinton's assault weapon ban if Hillary gets elected.

But what is really pissing them off are the gun brokers and stores upping the prices of their rifle stocks before the panic purchasing before the alleged ban happens.

Inter arma enim silent leges

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