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DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#98626: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:29:31 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I really didn't know there were this many presidents who didn't start rich. Still find these political dynasties strange, though. tongue

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#98627: Aug 14th 2015 at 9:30:02 PM

Political dynasties are very simple: if you share a last name with a previous president, you've got built in name recognition.

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98628: Aug 14th 2015 at 11:11:04 PM

Somewhat related, we currently have one of the wealthiest Congresses in our nation's history with the highest number of millionaires. Representative Darrell Issa holds the most wealth at 357 million dollars.

edited 14th Aug '15 11:11:30 PM by Aprilla

Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#98629: Aug 15th 2015 at 1:40:18 AM

Well, that's not surprising, what with all that wealth being tossed at politicians by special interests.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#98630: Aug 15th 2015 at 1:58:19 AM

[up]

Issa I believe actually made his money selling car alarms and the like before becoming a Congressman.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98631: Aug 15th 2015 at 10:43:58 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] Wow not as bad as Iraq!! Obama must be feeling so proud of himself for not screwing up that badly!! Though from a governing standpoint you could argue Libya is worse than Iraq, seeing as the Internationally recognized government holds harpy any territory at all, as opposed to the Iraqi government which can at least control the Shia majority areas. If you want Obama foreign policy failures that left those countries as bad,if not worse of than Iraq though, look to Syria and Yemen. Though in those instances the US has not lost nearly as much as in Iraq.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98632: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:06:29 AM

Here's the thing to ask: Were there any good outcomes from those interventions? If we count things solely in terms of American lives lost, then Libya and Syria were vastly superior to Iraq. But what are our goals? To spread democracy? To stop dictators? To maintain stability? To keep the oil flowing? To guarantee human rights? Many of these are not compatible, or are decades-long projects requiring many trillions of dollars of investment and a massive military presence.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98633: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:12:17 AM

[up] Their were outcomes not as bad as the current ones, what with both becoming terrorist strongholds.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#98634: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:15:05 AM

Iraq became a terrorist stronghold too, because the political will (both in Iraq and in the US) wasn't there for a perpetual occupation.

Basically it's a Morton's Fork when situations like this come up. You're screwed no matter what you do, and you just have to choose between different shades of it.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98635: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:15:09 AM

[up][up]That was likely to have happened regardless, but it sounds like your suggestion would be to allow their existing governments the authority to murder their own citizens to suppress said terrorists.

That or invade and occupy those nations at the cost of thousands of American lives and accept ten or twenty years of throwing money and people at them.

edited 15th Aug '15 11:16:04 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#98636: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:24:43 AM

How much money did we spend on Iraq?

How much did we spend on Libya?

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#98637: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:30:27 AM

[up] When on Iraq? During Desert Shield/Storm in 1990/91? During the aftermath of Desert Storm and No-Fly Zones during the 90s, which led into the Invasion in 2003 and the aftermath?

It might be interesting to note that the USAFnote  has been in constant combat operations since Saddam invaded Kuwait 25 years ago.

edited 15th Aug '15 11:33:37 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98638: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:32:30 AM

I'm not saying that Iraq went well, or that Libya went worse, but dismissing how much of a clusterfuck Libya, Yemen, and Syria are for us because they "aren't as bad as Iraq" strikes me as naive at best.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#98639: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:42:09 AM

Plus the US wouldn't have been able to stop the Libya intervention by not participating. The French and British were going for it anyway, Obama could either help a little for some credit, or stand aside as the French and British got all the praise.

Libya is proof of the success of Obama's "leading from behind" policy, in that the US got a share of the initial PR boost but now it's all gone to shit it can go "Dude this wasn't us, it was the French and British". That and the outcome we got is in many ways the best that Obama could manage (the British, French and others however...).

edited 15th Aug '15 11:44:07 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#98640: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:50:20 AM

It's amazing how much of the instability in the middle east is the fault of the Brits and the French...

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98641: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:55:19 AM

[up][up] I'm not saying we shouldn't have intervened, or tried to stop the British and French intervention, but we should have put in more effort to stabilizing the country after the conflict, though probably not send troops in.

[up] Don't forget the Italians, and Belgiums.

edited 15th Aug '15 11:58:39 AM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98642: Aug 15th 2015 at 11:58:30 AM

Would we have been welcomed as saviors or fought as invaders, especially given Iraq?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#98643: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:00:08 PM

[up][up]RE: Ialians and Belgians. Thats more Africa than the middle east. The middle east was mostly turned into the shithole of political instability we all know and love after the Brits and the French carved up the Ottoman empire following WWI.

edited 15th Aug '15 12:00:44 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98644: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:00:38 PM

[up][up] I don't know, apparently we were quite popular in the country for a while, people protested against the militias after the Benghazi attack, but again, we would not have sent in ground troops. We would have given the new government financial aid, and maybe Special forces support if the militias went rouge, but that should have been it.

[up] Well the Italians were Libya's former colonial master. Not disagreeing with you on the British and French, just pointing out their were others.

edited 15th Aug '15 12:01:33 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#98646: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:02:21 PM

The problem was Obama (and the others) wanted to do it without sending troops, a difficult (but not impossible) task in and of itself....but also do it on the cheap. Including wanting Libya to pay for everything in advance, despite infrastructural collapse.

If NATO had sent a significant advisory detachment (but not enough to run Libya or seem like an occupation), and provided significant funds (perhaps to be paid back by Tripoli later), focus on law enforcement first and then defence and then everything else, this wouldn't have been as chaotic as it has been.

That said, Libya isn't actually a failure yet. The recognized government is slowly clawing back territory, the conflict is forcing the various militias to merge or disband, and generally its not gotten as bad as Syria or even the first civil war in Libya. And the two main factions are still talking, under UN auspices.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98647: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:02:28 PM

[up][up] If they turned against the government, god I hate homophones.

edited 15th Aug '15 12:02:38 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#98648: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:04:50 PM

Will it include silky smooth intersecting lines?

edited 15th Aug '15 12:05:56 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98649: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:05:06 PM

"Rogue" = a renegade, unscrupulous person, scoundrel
"Rouge" = reddish makeup

They are not even pronounced the same.

It is my personal mission to stamp out that mistake from the world.

edited 15th Aug '15 12:06:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#98650: Aug 15th 2015 at 12:06:43 PM

...You are playing the wrong MMO for that to happen soon Fighteer ^^

"You can reply to this Message!"

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