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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98351: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:49:05 AM

[up][up][up]

Thing is a corporation will do whatever will make them more money, they themselves are not intentionally walking all over minorities, as I said that's counter productive to making money.

It's the lead up to even getting to this point that screws people over (Economic situations)

[up][up]

The thing is most of this is not within the control of the employer the problem largely lies with the shit economic situation this broken country has minorities stuck in, the companies themselves (and employers in general) are largely not at fault for whatever is happening prior to the person (who is not necessarily the most qualified) stepping up for a job.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:51:41 AM by Stratostygo3

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#98352: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:49:14 AM

It's difficult to measure the exact amount of racism that goes into hiring decisions, since much of it is unconscious, and even when it is a conscious choice, if they have any brains they're not going to admit it.

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98353: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:50:43 AM

Yeah I know you think i'm stupid

No. No, you do not know that.

Please stop.

Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98354: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:52:33 AM

[up]

" I did not say you were an imbecile. But if the shoe fits, wear it"

Knock it off.

it's such an obvious roundabout way of insulting someone, at least own it.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:53:00 AM by Stratostygo3

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#98355: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:52:48 AM

I wonder if there's been an experiment where a white man put out job applications as "Jamal Dyson" and one under his real name, same experience, same qualifications, and could see what sort of response rate he got.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#98356: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:53:36 AM

There are hundreds of those.

I remember they were discussed in one of the Freakonomics books, too.

The thing is most of this is not within the control of the employer the problem largely lies with the shit economic situation this broken country has minorities stuck in, the companies themselves (and employers in general) are largely not at fault for whatever is happening prior to the person (who is not necessarily the most qualified) stepping up for a job.

There is a concept of companies regarding a social responsibility.

If you are a company that is fully aware of economic difficulties, who knows people are struggling and who knows the problems and deficiencies others are suffering through, you have two options.

You can shrug, close your eyes and ears and deny your responsibility in being part of fixing this (companies can hire who they want. Put them through courses. Train them. Educate them. Scholarship them while still making profit), and also spending their profit back into the society that allows them to thrive.

Just saying they are part of the problem is not the whole side of it, they can also be part of the solution.

My personal fear is that this part of the solution will be blocked because simple theorethical terms wil be prostituted to hell and back.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:56:49 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#98357: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:53:57 AM

There have been. Give me a minute to Google-fu them for you...

Here's one.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:54:59 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98358: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:54:13 AM

[up]x6 In that case it's even more disingenuous to assume that's the reason for not being hired, because frankly one can't really know nor has anything to prove it.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:54:50 AM by Stratostygo3

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98359: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:57:24 AM

it's such an obvious roundabout way of insulting someone, at least own it.

No, you're being presumptuous.

I recall an article discussing telephone interviews and how they supposedly improve the hiring process for marginalized groups, but I can't find it right now.

Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98360: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:58:30 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#98361: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:00:11 AM

no. fite ME aprilla

put ur dukes up

ill punch the head milke out of u

edited 11th Aug '15 10:00:31 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98363: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:05:48 AM

Equal Employment Opportunity Commission - Prohibited Employment Policies/Practices

Look this over when you have the chance. Some policy makers, activists and civil rights attorneys have argued that pre-employment inquiries should be amended to cover more specific dress styles (i.e. not reject an applicant because of their afro or dreadlocks) and to exclude inquiries about maternity. I believe the latter is covered in many states if I recall correctly.

[up][up]Let me get the polar bear so we can make it fair.

[up][up][up]There's something here I want to address openly because I want others to see and understand it.

I'm much less interested in you and more so with the arguments you've put forth. However, your points have been summarily addressed and countered by other people. They are also not particularly original or nuanced arguments, and they have been debunked before in numerous other environments of public discourse.

Consider the implicit and explicit layers of meaning in language when you're presented with a rhetorical device or a metaphor. There was a point being illustrated to you with the metaphor about fitting shoes that you misinterpreted. It is ultimately neither here nor there, but what is worth focusing on right now is that it's generally good practice to not read too deeply into the assumptions total strangers are (or my case, are not) making about you as a human being.

I do not know you. I do not know how intelligent you are, nor do I care. That is not an insult. It is a mere statement of fact. My concern was with the inaccuracies behind the assumption that society has become overly sensitive or that workplace discrimination is too nebulous to be addressed at the policy making or educational level.

We have a political base in our nation that has taken great strides in implanting the idea that our hiring process is totally transparent and based on premeditated fairness. This ignores subconscious biases we have about people who are different from us, and it ignores the obstacles marginalized people are faced with up to and including microaggressions that can and often do jeopardize their economic growth.

edited 11th Aug '15 10:36:56 AM by Aprilla

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#98364: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:17:58 AM

I tend to simplify it. It's about the money at the root.

Despite that there are (very) well-to-do African Americans and Hispanic Americans, the overall impressions is that they have lower socio-economic rankings.

For low-ranking jobs, this isn't much of a concern. But the higher-level jobs usually require social circles of a certain level. See "social capital" or Guanxi

Another thing is that most employers prefer to hire people who do not have money troubles. That's why they also do credit checks.

Oh yeah, and social capital is probably why I wouldn't agree with Murphy Brown about raising a child on your own (even if I like her a lot). Over here, marriages are not just between two people, families but two clans also interconnected with other clans. It's tough to compete with individuals with so much social capital.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#98365: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:22:57 AM

Yeah over here there's been issues with black people not being hired for city jobs because they don't sound posh. It's not even that the person hiring is racist, a person who doesn't sound posh can't do the job as well because the job requires spending a lot of time dealing with posh snobs who will be less receptive if you can't speak in a posh accent.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98366: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:25:12 AM

[up][up] Yeah, it's why you'll never catch me having kids, on top of disliking them, it's too expensive

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#98367: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:28:19 AM

[up][up][up][up] Also need to say, again, that making loopholes around those laws are laughably easy for companies. And the U.S is one of the countries that regularizes how you run adverts for positions and such, I think.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98368: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:31:28 AM

Language and dialect discrimination aren't mentioned much, but it still crops up from time to time, particularly with Southerns, those who speak AAVE and Spanish-speaking personnel.

That was a minor quibble people had about both Jimmy Carter and Bush Jr, though I'm reluctant to excuse the latter.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#98369: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:50:50 AM

Stratostygo3: Stop trying to pick fights with out regulars.

Aprilla: No feeding them. You know better.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#98370: Aug 11th 2015 at 10:54:17 AM

I have a bigendered name. Since I have used the masculine spelling of my name, I have had less resumes refused on first impression.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98371: Aug 11th 2015 at 11:15:25 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98372: Aug 11th 2015 at 11:17:27 AM

Indeed, we do have the power to ban you. Rejecting faulty arguments does not make us an echo chamber. Bye now.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#98373: Aug 11th 2015 at 11:20:14 AM

Who are the Oath Keepers, and why has the armed group returned to Ferguson?

On Monday night, protesters again gathered in the streets of Ferguson, Mo. Demonstrations in the St. Louis suburb have flared up in recent days to mark the one-year anniversary of the death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager who was fatally shot by a white police officer.

Also on the scene overnight: Members of a citizen militia group known as the Oath Keepers.

The men — all of them white and heavily armed — said they were in the area to protect someone who worked for the Web site Infowars.com, which is affiliated with talk-radio conspiracy theorist and self-described “thought criminal against Big Brother” Alex Jones.

Reporters and Black Lives Matter activists immediately took note.

“Media launches new demonization campaign as Oath Keepers arrive in Ferguson,” read an infowars.com headline Tuesday; the story noted that Oath Keepers members were with two reporters for the site.

If the presence of this group was confusing, here’s a brief explainer on their background and history in Ferguson.

Who are the Oath Keepers?

On their Web site, the Oath Keepers are described as a group focused on fulfilling “the oath all military and police take to ‘defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.'” The site notes that the organization is comprised of members who have, or have previously had, some sort of connection to law enforcement or the military.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, however, describes the Oath Keepers as a “fiercely antigovernment, militaristic group.”

“The core idea of the group is that its members vow to forever support the oaths they took on joining law enforcement or the military to defend the Constitution,” reads the SPLC site. “But just as central is the group’s list of 10 ‘Orders We Will Not Obey,’ a compendium of much-feared but entirely imaginary threats from the government — orders, for instance, to force Americans into concentration camps, confiscate their guns, or cooperate with foreign troops in the United States.”

One Oath Keeper named Sam Andrews told the New York Times last year that the group’s membership includes “a really broad group of citizens, and I’m sure their motivations are all different. In many of them, there’s probably a sense of patriotism. But I think in most of them, there’s probably something that they probably don’t even recognize: that we have a moral obligation to protect the weakest among us.”

As The Post’s Terrence Mc Coy wrote in November:

The Oath Keepers are many things to many people. For one fervent believer, it’s about the Constitution. For another, it’s about a .50-caliber Bushmaster and his right to carry it. Others talk of fear: fear America has become a security state. Fear President Obama has become a dictator. Fear the Oath Keepers are needed now more than ever — especially in Ferguson, Mo.

The group, Mc Coy added, “came into being after founder Stewart Rhodes wrote a 2008 manifesto calling for men and women to protect a complacent America besieged by what he described as dictatorial leaders. ‘If a police state comes to America, it will ultimately be in your hands,’ Rhodes, a Yale Law School graduate, wrote. ‘That is a harsh reality, but you had better come to terms with it now, and resolve to not let it happen on your watch.'”

What are the Oath Keepers doing in Ferguson?

Abby Phillip, who is on the the ground for The Post in Ferguson, described the scene like this:

Members of the group arrived on West Florissant Avenue in Ferguson in the early morning as protests wound down just before 2 a.m.

The small group of men — dressed in military-style camouflage and bullet-proof vests, and armed with long guns — initially startled protesters, some of whom asked the Oath Keepers to leave. But they insisted that they were “on their side,” and had arrived to protect protesters from police, who stood standing watching in riot gear across the street. They said Missouri law permitted them to openly carry legally owned weapons.

When the Oath Keepers crossed to the same side of the street where police stood, protesters followed. But police didn’t react to their presence.

Has this group been in Ferguson before?

Yes, in November — though their presence was rather confusing for residents and activists then, too.

Here’s the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, describing the scene a few days after it was announced that Darren Wilson — the officer who shot Brown — wouldn’t face criminal charges:

Following a night of arson fires and bashed storefronts that hit close to home, Greg Hildebrand stood naked Tuesday, drying off from a needed shower, when he noticed somebody on the rooftop.

“I opened the window and said, ‘Hey, can I help you?’” said Hildebrand, 35, a website developer.

The man said he was security and would be up there at night with others to protect the pocket of second-story apartments and lower-level storefronts near the Ferguson Police Department. A day earlier, rioters had broken out windows below Hildebrand’s apartment in the 100 block of South Florissant Road and torched a nearby beauty supply store.

“I am in the middle of a difficult spot,” Hildebrand said. “I feel a lot better having those guys up on the roof.”

“When they’re here, there’s definitely a weight lifted off of our shoulders,” Davis Vo, whose family owns a local restaurant, told the New York Times, when discussing the Oath Keepers in November. “I’d be lying if I said otherwise.”

What do authorities in Missouri say?

“Their presence was both unnecessary and inflammatory,” St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar said.

What do the Oath Keepers say?

An e-mail to Oath Keepers was not immediately returned Tuesday.

But here, from the Alex Jones Channel on You Tube, are videos of Oath Keepers engaging with some of the Ferguson protesters.

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98374: Aug 11th 2015 at 11:40:58 AM

Hmm...

If they're genuinely on the side of the protestors, this could have been conveyed much better. Like others, I can't help but notice how for many people, the disruption of Sanders' speech was met with great condemnation (note that the two women were unarmed) while the presence of armed militia men, while regarded as bewildering, is tacitly more acceptable.

I'll admit that I have slight issues with some activists calling them white supremacists, but these men's perspective on BLM is not the healthiest, to say the least.

A good point I just heard online: "What would you think if I stood outside your house to guard it without you asking? And argued with you when you asked me to leave?"

Something to think about.

edited 11th Aug '15 11:43:39 AM by Aprilla

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#98375: Aug 11th 2015 at 12:00:34 PM

To put in perspective in both of my jobs in Baltimore, I got from kitchen service to cashier at Wendy's in just three mere weeks of work and in the Villa restaurant I went from waiter to cashier in less than four (I didn't even get the cooking and kitchen works).

Why? Formal English and quick math skills, one of my co-workers mentioned you'd need months working just to get assigned to those spots. Incidentally I was more often than not the only male in the staff at Wendy's and the whitest (arguably white depending of who you ask) guy in the workplace.

All my manager did was asking me a few questions and see how fast I'd answer, after a few work shifts she left me in charge of serving the customers and taking the money.

I was working with people who were usually older than me and she left implied they weren't either good with numbers or had an English clear enough to interact with most customers.

I take that as a sign of how far behind the education of the average black person in the US is, if a newcomer foreigner can attain a position that someone who worked before him should be first, but he gets it because the employer assumes that he/she knows she/he can do it, then it is the systematic lack of chances and education those people get as the fault for their lack of qualification.

Sometimes being the most qualified isn't a symptom of a meritocratic system, but of a rigged one that excludes people and groups from becoming the best choice.

[up][up]I really hope they side with the protesters.

edited 11th Aug '15 12:04:20 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges

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