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speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#98326: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:47:10 AM

I've been fairly lucky to have had jobs that didn't have bigots or sexual harassers.

One particular example stands out: A few years ago, I worked at Wells Fargo for nine months. Before an employee began doing the actual job, they had to complete a mandatory training course, part of which was a unit on respecting other races and cultures in the workplace. It was kinda "no duh" in execution, but you know what? It worked. The atmosphere, at least in my department, was one of mutual respect and positivity. People didn't see each other as black and white but as equal co-workers. Racist jabs weren't thrown around, there wasn't any tension to speak of, and the mood was often fun as a result, with laughter a common thing. All this, thanks to the "treat everyone with respect" tone that was established from the start.

TL;DR: It can be done. Employers just need to make it a big part of the office culture.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#98327: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:54:09 AM

Can't "I believe the most qualified person should get the job” also be used as an anti-bigot phrase? As in, you should choose the most qualified person for the job, instead of dismissing qualified applicants because they're black or a woman or whatever?

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#98328: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:58:13 AM

You can but that would be deliberately ignoring the weight and political meaning behind the phrase.

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98329: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:59:39 AM

In hiring decisions, often choices will be made between a pool of applicants who are equally qualified on paper. At that point, if you're hiring 90% white men, it becomes an issue of discrimination, whether you are consciously racist or not.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:02:13 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98330: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:02:42 AM

I'm getting rather tired of harmless (and reasonable) phrases such as "Hiring the most qualified person for the job" being turned into some sort of buzzword for bigotry.

when I see this, or even say it as an example, it means exactly as it says, not "Generic clean faced white man"

rather "someone who can do what I tell them to do"

people get offended far too easily and often.

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98331: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:03:49 AM

[up] Unfortunately, how you mean those statements has little bearing on how they are actually meant in practice, and disregarding that is a declaration of your own ignorance. In this nation, qualified minorities are frequently excluded from jobs and harassed while in them, and "hire the most qualified person" is used as way to deflect criticism of those behaviors.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:05:05 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98332: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:04:48 AM

[up] I mean that literally as it says, no "racial" nonsense.

whoever can do what they are supposed to do competently.

automatically assuming the worst is ignorance itself.

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98333: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:05:56 AM

Nope. Until you experience the reality of being a minority or a woman in the job market, your personal definitions of those terms are irrelevant.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#98334: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:06:42 AM

How would you suggest complaining about nepotism, then, when the more qualified candidate is passed over for someone who's related to or friends with the people in charge?

Though, granted, colleges have their own reasons for not wanting people to discuss that. wink

Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98335: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:08:00 AM

[up][up]Guess what?

I'm mixed race, so, let's not presume a bunch of ridiculous things.

And yeah, definitions and actual intent do matter, not "how I view things through my own emotional lense"

The actual meaning of those words are not racist, that's an emotionally charged personal definition and not at all objective.

"How would you suggest complaining about nepotism, then, when the more qualified candidate is passed over for someone who's related to or friends with the people in charge?"

I'm wholly against that, most qualified first.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:08:48 AM by Stratostygo3

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98336: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:08:44 AM

Here we go again.

It's pretty inevitable that in any discussion about social inequality, you can and will find at least one person part of a marginalized group who doesn't see what the big deal is. But for every one black person who likes the Confederate flag, for every one Latino who thinks Mexicans are invading the country, for every one woman who thinks women have it pretty cushy in the workplace, for every one Asian who thinks orientalism is a non-issue, for every one Native American who thinks land rights are an outdated concept and for every LGBT person who thinks the economy is more important than gay marriage...

...there are going to be dozens, hundreds and thousands of people within those very same groups who will rightfully say that the system is rigged. Because it is.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:18:00 AM by Aprilla

Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98337: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:23:33 AM

[up]The system is rigged.

But to blatantly assume that a phrase such as "the most qualified for the job" is somehow racist.

is frankly, Bullshit.

Do not misunderstand me, or lump me with "Blacks that like confederate flags" or "gays that vote republican"

I'm a solid Liberal, but that doesn't mean that every silly argument that comes from our side is automatically correct.

Sorry, but sometimes the lesbian Black muslim is not necessarily the most qualified.

people need to stop automatically assuming it was someone else's fault that they weren't hired.

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98338: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:24:41 AM

Yeah, I heard you the first time.

You think people are overly sensitive. I get it. You've said this in multiple threads multiple times. You also don't seem to have a very clear understanding of how professional discrimination works.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:25:30 AM by Aprilla

Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98339: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:29:53 AM

I think you should come up with a counter point instead of "well you don't understand"

I do understand, I understand that people tend to assume the worst and place blame on others rather than "maybe I do suck at making pasta" or "perhaps I was an asshole at the call center" "maybe It's because my skills are inadequate and not because I have darker skin"

I'm not saying that there is NO racism in the workplace, but to assume that's always the biggest issue is again, ridiculous, I could complain about all kinds of nonsense based on my mixed race, rather than "I kinda suck at a lot of things"

you can sit there and flippantly call me a naive imbecile all you'd like, doesn't make this nonsense true.

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98340: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:32:31 AM

So the fact that blacks and Hispanics are unemployed at lower rates and paid less than whites is entirely due to those people being less competent at work? I think not. As for "naive imbecile", you said it, not us. We called you ignorant.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:32:48 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98341: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:35:57 AM

[up][up]Uh huh. Okay. Keep on bangin' that strawman.

[up]Yep.

NPR - 'Ideological' Or 'Illogical': President Obama Responds To Iran Deal Critics

edited 11th Aug '15 9:37:38 AM by Aprilla

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#98342: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:38:12 AM

I can see where you are coming Stratos but bear with me here.

If we are speaking theory only, phrases like "The most adequate for the job" are great. This is however idyllic and helpful for theories. When applied to reality, when applied to statistics, politics and laws that ensure equal opportunity and stuff need to be taken into account.

For example, I personally do not believe that black people are probably less qualified because of an inherent thing, but I do think it is more likely, because we live in a biased system that has a severe discrimination against black people, that it is less likely that a black person will have the studies, opportunities and livelihood that a white person will more likely have.

So when I, as a person who works in HR, receive a piece of paper, you gotta take into account what also lead to what is writter in that piece of paper. It is very easy to point at the rioting black skinned people and say "I am not like those. Why can they not be more like me?" when there are many situations that could have just as easily put you, or me, in the place of the other.

For theories it works wonderfully and if there is someone afflicted by the politization of theorethical terms like "The better qualified" it would be me because of my line of job, but reality intervenes more often than not in theories, pesky thing that it is.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:38:53 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98343: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:39:17 AM

[up][up]

No it's because they are in shittier economic situations with shittier opportunities, you can easily argue the origins of this are brought about by racism and the past, and i'd agree.

however to assume it's "a bunch of RACIST companies" is ignorant, it's because of terrible education (due to being in pretty bad straits) which translates to not having the skills they need to do the job.

And I (whether you care or not) have experience with this, back when I was a child I had "mediocre" schooling and when I advanced to middle school it was just plain shit, I learned nothing, the teachers felt the need to play computer games or read to themselves or talk about past blowjobs of all things (yes this happened) rather than teach their students

But you know, let's ignore all of this and assume it's because racist evil companies are out to stomp on brown people for fun! because you know, making money is second on the list of things that companies are made for, being racist for no reason whatsoever is #1.

It's quite sad you resort to insults and sarcasm rather than an actual argument, come on mates, I expected more from this place.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:39:29 AM by Stratostygo3

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98344: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:43:56 AM

It's simple. Really simple.

I'm not insulting you. You are insulting yourself by mischaracterizing my argument. I said you don't understand professional discrimination. I did not say you were an imbecile. But if the shoe fits, wear it. That's the whole point of a strawman argument. Inappropriately illustrating a counterpoint to make it easier to dissect is precisely what a strawman argument is.

You've been complaining about how overly sensitive people have become these days, yet you don't seem to be cognizant of the irony you're presenting here.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#98345: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:44:13 AM

It's a hard topic to sort through: people should be challenged, but not in a way that causes distress, and mental health is important. Telling people "just suck it up, there are always going to be assholes" is certainly true, but ignores the fact that it could be better.

They're applying the logic in a very hamfisted manner, is the problem, but the idea is that you really have to think about and empathize with others in your words and actions. It's not "somebody was made to feel bad, retribution!" but it's being applied that way.

Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98346: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:44:18 AM

[up] [up][up]

Well thing is, Blacks tend to be in crappier economic situations with less access to good education, it has nothing to do with "black" their skin color is irrelevant, there's also LESS blacks in the country so obviously by nature of population numbers they're going to be hired less.

I think we are more in agreement than you think.

(especially regards to economic circumstance that started off from blatant racism)

I just don't agree that these companies are in a conspiracy to stomp on minorities, that's counterproductive to them making $$$

Good to see people who will actually debate instead of trying to be witty or sarcastic with flippant responses based on presumptions.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:44:31 AM by Stratostygo3

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Stratostygo3 The Harbinger of Chaos. from Dominion of Antarctica Since: Jul, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
The Harbinger of Chaos.
#98347: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:47:11 AM

[up][up][up]

Yeah I know you think i'm stupid, but please don't insult my intelligence with this roundabout way of insulting me, that might work on small children, but not on me.

There is no "irony" "but if the shoe fits" in regards to me being imbecile, is an insult, be as roundabout and cute as you desire, doesn't change that fact.

and what strawman? you seem to be the one mischaracterizing what I say and just labeling it as "you just don't understand"

like some sort of TV character.

come up with a real counterpoint instead of trying to be "witty"

edited 11th Aug '15 9:47:34 AM by Stratostygo3

The world is inherently chaotic no amount of religion, conspiracy or wishful thinking will change that, accept it, and move on.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#98348: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:47:21 AM

I just don't agree that these companies are in a conspiracy to stomp on minorities, that's counterproductive to them making $$$

Most companies will do the same thing they have always done. They will take the opportunities present. And if the opportunities are biased towards white people, then yeah, they will naturally favor white people because that is where the money is for them.

Also, the skin color of people still matters to a few people. People with enough power. Enough that it is what denies them the opportunties, and this is incredibly hard to tabulate and detect with theories.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98349: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:47:47 AM

There doesn't have to be an active conspiracy; there just has to be perpetuation of existing systems. You see, to redress systemic inequality, it is insufficient to declare the job finished when those institutions are free of overt racism — and we have plenty of evidence that even that is not true.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#98350: Aug 11th 2015 at 9:48:55 AM

I live in a place were crosses are burned and where confederate flags are thrown and even I'm willing say they aren't all rubbing their hands together and plotting how to bring down the black man.

But they do discriminate very heavily. Even if they don't realize it.

edited 11th Aug '15 9:49:19 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?

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