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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#98301: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:24:34 AM

The list of offensive statements included: “America is the land of opportunity” and “I believe the most qualified person should get the job.”
What is wrong with these people?

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#98302: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:26:38 AM

Well America being the land of opportunity is some serious bullshit and just something rich white people have told the lower class so we don't ever realize how fucked we are.

And literally the only time I've heard the qualified person for the job bit is when someone is arguing against affirmative action.

Oh really when?
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#98303: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:27:33 AM

[up][up] It is frequently used as a reason for people not supporting affirmative acton. Apparently it is offensive. Unless you were referring to people who use the phrase and not those who are offended by it.

edited 11th Aug '15 6:27:45 AM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#98304: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:33:51 AM

Maybe it's because I'm not American, but my first thought on seeing that was: "Why is a meritocracy offensive?"

And even with affirmative action, you'd still look for someone who's actually qualified for the job, right?

edited 11th Aug '15 6:35:12 AM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#98305: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:34:18 AM

A state of emergency has been declared in Ferguson.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#98306: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:35:13 AM

[up][up]It is because you aren't American. Not your fault.

Over here that phrase is a common dog whistle and the most common way to argue against affirmative action. As a general rule, the people who use it are usually bigots.

I can assure you, that phrase has got absolutely nothing to do with qualifications.

edited 11th Aug '15 6:39:21 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98307: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:36:54 AM

There's nothing inherently wrong with a meritocracy as long as it takes care of people who don't measure up on the scale of 'merit'. Like many ideas, it sounds great on paper, but in practice gets used to justify the wealthy getting wealthier at everyone else's expense.

Oh, and naked racism, of course.

edited 11th Aug '15 6:38:39 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#98308: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:39:15 AM

[up] That article on coddling .. wow, that makes me really, really worried about using my GI Bill once I'm out of the military. It would hardly bode well if I got censured or sued on my first week back at college because I said something "triggering" about the military.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#98309: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:41:18 AM

Related to the State of Emergency, we've got armed and armored Oath Keepers "patrolling" the streets in Ferguson now.

For those who don't know, Oath Keepers are one of those Sovereign Citizen type militias largely made up of people discharged from the military.

I'm amazed they haven't killed anyone actually.

edited 11th Aug '15 6:45:12 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#98310: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:41:18 AM

Yep. It's not the face value meaning of the statements, it's the connotations they have as political speech.

"America is the land of opertunity" really means: America is the only country in the world with any opertunities and you are privileged to live here. It's not my fault you can't just pull yourself out of poverty without any help from anyone.

"I believe the most qualified person should get the job" really means: and by qualified I mean white. Brown people only get jobs because of quotas. If you got rid of affirmative action I'd never have to deal with them.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#98311: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:44:37 AM

Banning these phrases from campus by labeling them "microaggressions" still seems a bit silly to me, though. Universities should foster discussion and critical thinking, not coddle you and shelter you from other people's opinions.

Someone disagrees with you on something? Confront them, debate them. Don't run to your safe space because you feel their opinions might trigger you.

At least, that's my opinion on the matter.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98312: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:45:53 AM

When someone is talking like that, they aren't interested in having a good-faith debate. Debating them is what they want: it sucks you into a quagmire of false arguments. It's no more and no less than a gigantic Chewbacca Defense.

edited 11th Aug '15 7:51:28 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#98313: Aug 11th 2015 at 6:48:36 AM

Yeah, I know this sorta stuff seems kinda silly from an outsider's perspective but you have to understand that in America a lot of these seemingly harmless and normal sounding phrases and terms have some serious political and racial malice behind them.

The people who use them aren't interested in honest debate and are deliberately using them as a way to espouse some really hateful beliefs.

edited 11th Aug '15 6:50:52 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#98314: Aug 11th 2015 at 7:02:33 AM

I had the debates over meritocracy with my college mates, the consensus achieve was that it is only good when people have: the same opportunities and lack bias towards others.

It is hardly achievable even in the most egalitarian societies, but it is good for avoiding lowering the standards and reducing inefficiency if you adopt an utilitarian standpoint, but there is a huge human risk attached, specially over racial bias, class bias, gender and regional/national bias.

Good on paper, not so much on the practice.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98316: Aug 11th 2015 at 7:40:17 AM

[up][up]Exactly. Meritocracy in its pure form only works in a system without institutionalized bias, and ours is loaded with it.

edited 11th Aug '15 7:40:38 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#98317: Aug 11th 2015 at 7:48:19 AM

I am going to get pedantic here because we are talking about technicism bits on theory regarding personnel selection and recruitment and such.

When theorists refer to "Select the most adequate person for the job" it means that there is interest on both parties to enter a symbiotic relationship that is profitable and efficient for both, with several theories differing on the parameters that measure these.

However, I do not believe it forms part of a government's tasks to enforce who gets hired and who gets not hired. Its task is more directed to creating an environment that generates equal opportunity for all its citizens to attain education, opportunities, etc.

In other words, I think when politicians speak about meritocracy they are appropriating terms that do not belong to them to justify certain shit without actually applying any theory. If they did, they would be able to tell me exactly why the fuck X is considered more fitting for the job than Y. Instead they use it as a carte blanche to answer that with a "I dunno, that is up to them", and permit the biases to remain.

Goodness that makes me sound like a nazi, sortof. Heil Aszur.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98318: Aug 11th 2015 at 7:53:08 AM

If we could build a world in which government's role is to guarantee all citizens equality of opportunity up to the point where they enter the workforce, it would be quite different (and a lot better, IMO) than what we have now. I would consider that a job well done, in fact.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98319: Aug 11th 2015 at 7:53:47 AM

@Microaggressions:

Yeah, they seem silly to some of you, but they are real problems with sometimes significant consequences.

For example, when you're flirting with a pretty girl at her workplace (especially if it's a service industry like retail or fast food), she's probably smiling and pretending to be receptive because she doesn't want to come off as abrasive to the point where she could get her job threatened for "lack of customer service".

Or you're black like me and you spend a long time in your office giving a fake smile to every inane joke about black people that one obnoxious white guy can muster. "Man, I'm blacker than you! Who took the ink cartridges? I bet Aprilla did it, lol!" If you don't play ball, tension rises in the office and you get labeled as a stick in the mud. This can and does factor into your ability to get office supplies, establish rapport with your clients (rumor mills are a thing) and it can hurt your ability to receive promotions because you are perceived as rocking the boat.

I'm on the fence when it comes to trigger warnings, but if you think microaggressions are silly, reflect upon all the times your Indian co-worker or that cute girl at Costco magically stopped talking to you after a while.

@For the sake of historical awareness, bear in mind once again that the term meritocracy was coined by Michael Young as a satirical device for his 1958 satire The Rise of the Meritocracy. It was not originally intended to be a celebrated concept.

edited 11th Aug '15 7:57:04 AM by Aprilla

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98320: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:03:59 AM

[up] Those sorts of jokes fall squarely under the umbrella of many workplace harassment policies and could very well be grounds for civil action. I know that my office would absolutely not tolerate it and would probably fire the offenders.

edited 11th Aug '15 8:04:15 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#98321: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:05:17 AM

Yeah but you're somewhere up there in the civilized area of the country aren't you?

I'm in a Right To Work state, you speak up about that stuff and you're out on your ass that same day.

edited 11th Aug '15 8:05:37 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#98322: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:08:12 AM

I suppose. It's kind of scary realizing that "privilege" is working for a company that actually means it when they say they won't tolerate racial and sexual harassment.

It does more than anything to illustrate how desperately we need government action to redress these inequalities.

edited 11th Aug '15 8:11:37 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#98323: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:19:14 AM

For the sake of historical awareness, bear in mind once again that the term meritocracy was coined by Michael Young as a satirical device for his 1958 satire The Rise of the Meritocracy.

I merely refer to the term of "meritocracy" for the sake of general understanding though. In the theorethical terms of it, we would speak of "Competence", from for example Spencer & Spencer, or David McClelland. "Emotional Intelligence" is another term, coined by Daniel Goleman. The modern measuring of "competence" one way or another, has its historical roots in the first intelligence tests for the United States Army, the Army Alpha, by Robert Yerkes, in 1917.

I need to specify modern because I think one of the first proofs we have of measuring systems of competence can be dated back to Ancient China and Egypt.

And yes, I am aware that I am being pedantic as fuck. My fear, if I must be honest, is that after all that debacle, someone like me comes around saying "Hey guys! I developed this tool that can help us find the most adequate person for the job!" and people will immediately have a bias and hatred against it, because it was taken out of context politically

edited 11th Aug '15 8:22:55 AM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#98324: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:21:10 AM

I'm deeply sympathetic to the conservative argument that we shouldn't have to implement formal policies for these situations, but it's another case of This is Why We Can't Have Nice Things.

I can take a joke about racial politics just fine, but when that starts to affect my work performance, you need to back off. If I'm frowning at your comment, it doesn't mean I'm going to call the ACLU, but you probably shouldn't be surprised if I don't talk to you for the rest of the afternoon.

This isn't just something you see in your workplace. You encounter it in so many environments and it starts to eat away at you. Doesn't mean you're weak or oversensitive. It means you have a functioning brain. We're learning more and more about the human nervous system, and what we're finding is that people are not as mentally fortified as we would like to think.

I don't like hand holding, but I don't like hearing about a co-worker who waited to get to his car before bursting into tears because the other guys made fun of his culture for the eightieth time and he didn't want them to think he was too weak to handle it.

edited 11th Aug '15 8:22:39 AM by Aprilla

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#98325: Aug 11th 2015 at 8:29:26 AM

My company at least pays lip service to the idea that sexual harassment is bad (what with mandatory classes). Unofortunately, state law doesn't acknowledge same-sex harassment, so they don't. Granted, such harassment would out you as gay and be a good way to get fired, but that's another problem.


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