TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97626: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:33:54 PM

The exact agency that does the gun-waving is more or less irrelevant. The legitimacy of the U.S. dollar is fundamentally an ad baculum matter, as is the legitimacy of the sovereign currencies of all other nations. They have value because they can be seized from you by force to pay your debts, and therefore you need to acquire them so you don't get ... baculumed.

edited 3rd Aug '15 1:35:10 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#97627: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:35:40 PM

I know it's infinitely better than having currency based on something physical like gold or something but it still really freaks me out that most of our economy is totally imaginary.

Oh really when?
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#97628: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:36:47 PM

Armyless nations have no true economy!

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#97629: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:38:17 PM

[up][up][up]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baculum

What does a whale penis bone have to do with anything?tongue

[up][up] Thank President Nixon, for that. I always get those two things mixed.

Now I remember, FDR made it illegal to own gold.

edited 3rd Aug '15 1:42:08 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#97630: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:39:54 PM

It was the right move, gold backed economies are shit.

Fighteer can do smarter explanations because he's all smart and probably Paul Krugman in disguise but basically having a currency backed by anything means you have no ability to control your future.

Oh really when?
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#97631: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:40:01 PM

FDR had nothing to do with it. The U.S. backed the dollar with gold up until 1971.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97632: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:40:45 PM

Hard currency economies are equally "imaginary" — gold is valuable because people think it has value, not because it's inherently useful for anything besides electronics manufacturing and looking shiny.

Sovereign nations collect taxes to fund their operations — if they are in a hard currency regime, they are balance sheet constrained like any other entity and must steal it if they can't get enough. Fiat currency regimes are much more flexible and can borrow to sustain their functions without worrying about inflationary death spirals. That's the difference.

Prior to decoupling from the gold (or silver) standard, nations' only recourse if they ran out of currency was war (or finding more gold mines). In a fiat system, a nation cannot run out of currency by definition, removing one of the biggest incentives to warfare in all of history.

edited 3rd Aug '15 1:45:00 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#97633: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:42:31 PM

I know FDR did something. Maybe he let the currency float for a while before it was recoupled at the end of the war? Both FDR and Nixon are responsible, but some 38 years apart...

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#97634: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:46:10 PM

[up][up] So if a fiat economy crashes wouldn't it basically make the currency worthles?

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#97635: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:47:29 PM

If any economy crashes it makes the currency worthless. That's sort of the definition of an economic crash.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#97636: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:48:55 PM

Fiat currency allows a nation to fix itself, a gold backed currency or anything backed does not.

You will always be at the whims of someone else. All someone has to do it blow up Fort Knox or find a bigass gold vein and you're entire economy goes up in smoke and there is literally nothing you can do but sit there and die.

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97637: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:50:05 PM

Economies crash because: (a) they cannot produce enough to satisfy demand, (b) their consumers lack money with which to buy what they need, or (c) both. Money acts as a facilitator of those transactions — insufficient money can cause a demand crash because consumers are broke, and it can cause a supply crash because businesses can't get capital to improve production.

External debts — debts you owe in a common currency or someone else's currency — act as negative money, reducing the capacity of an economy to sustain demand and production. Internal debts — debts you owe in your own currency to your own people — are a zero sum operation; they have no effect on the money supply. However, the act of issuing them acts as a form of redistribution, taking money and using it more effectively.

edited 3rd Aug '15 1:53:33 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#97638: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:55:21 PM

[up]I know that much already. I was just wondering if it would be worse for a fiat economy cause you've got nothing to back it up, apart from printing more money which would devalue it further...

[down] The more you know.

You should write a book or something, it'd probably be a best seller.

Who knows why the Chinese do what they do?

Whatever they're doing, they seem to have the USA by the balls economically. God knows what could happen if their economy falls.

It'd probably be hell on earth.

edited 3rd Aug '15 2:02:00 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97639: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:57:16 PM

Devaluation is only meaningful in an external context; it has no direct effect within a domestic economy. Devaluation means that it costs more to import, but your exports are cheaper. If you are dependent on imports to sustain your economy, devaluation can reduce your consumers' purchasing power, but at the same time it improves your trade balance, bringing more money into your economy, which will boost demand. A weaker currency is good for an economy — why do you think China has invested so much effort into keeping theirs weak?

edited 3rd Aug '15 1:59:53 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#97640: Aug 3rd 2015 at 1:59:40 PM

Or Japan, or Russia?

All extremely export heavy countries. It's also why the Dollar and English Pound are so valuable. Big importers.

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97641: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:01:44 PM

There are equilibrium effects that come into play. If your currency gets weaker, your net trade position improves, bringing money into your economy, which makes your economy stronger, making your currency appreciate in value and slowly eroding your trade advantage.

Weak currency -> strong trade position -> strong currency -> weak trade position -> weak currency, ad infinitum. The main ways to stifle this effect are to keep your domestic economy unnaturally weak through mismanagement (Russia) or deliberate currency manipulation (China).

edited 3rd Aug '15 2:03:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97642: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:08:19 PM

Also, China does not have the U.S. "by the balls". Far from it. Sinophobia is rampant in our media, but let's take a hypothetical scenario wherein we suddenly default on the federal debt payments owed to China.

China's economy collapses. Ours is not hurt at all.

This is because of the old adage: "If you owe the bank a hundred dollars, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank a million dollars, you own the bank." China is utterly dependent on its dollar income for its domestic economy. It has based everything on that; its financial institutions are heavily invested in dollars and heavily leveraged against those holdings. If those debt positions were suddenly to default, its whole financial system would unravel, leading to a catastrophic crash.

Ironically, if this happened, China's currency would also crash and its exports would be cheaper for Americans to buy.

Its only remedy would be to go to war, but good luck with that.

edited 3rd Aug '15 2:15:07 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#97643: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:10:28 PM

China's economy is already crashing and everyone is just sort of not giving a shit.

Oh really when?
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#97644: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:13:01 PM

economics was never my strong suit. Still nice to know this stuff though.

[up][up] Who could stop them theoretically if they did? Their neighbors arent really in a state to resist, the USA is currently suffering a serious case of bystander syndrome, and has to clean up its own backyard.

Although having said that, the world is overdue for another World War.

edited 3rd Aug '15 2:23:14 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#97645: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:16:02 PM

I didn't know much until recently either but basically everything the Right pushes it totally wrong and they're only saying it to line the pockets of rich people.

Marx was right about the rich all along and Krugman has the solutions.

edited 3rd Aug '15 2:16:19 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97646: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:23:38 PM

China could go to war with its neighbors, but they are all dirt poor too. It would be a Pyrrhic solution.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#97647: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:24:11 PM

Sounds cult-ish. Do I get to wear cool hoods if I join?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#97648: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:28:41 PM

Well China really wouldn't benefit from going to war with it's neighbors because they're either too weak or can probably take Beijing in a week.

Plus China's military barely exists and probably wouldn't survive any kind of deployment. Their logistics would crash and it'd implode almost immediately.

Oh really when?
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#97649: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:31:51 PM

[up] They said the same about the Soviets before World War 2, it'd probably be a tough go at first until they got their shit straightened out.

Stranger things have happened after all.

edited 3rd Aug '15 2:32:54 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97650: Aug 3rd 2015 at 2:33:26 PM

You can't be blamed for falling prey to the myths about debt and China and so on considering the massive disinformation campaign being conducted in the media. We are so bombarded by these messages that it's very hard to keep one's head above the smoke and noise. Doing so requires not just good information sources but the ability to find them and the patience to sort out the truth.

Our society fosters deep undercurrents of resentment towards government "taking our freedom", which includes taxation and redistribution. Powerful interests capitalize on and foment this resentment because it helps them in their quest to remove taxation and redistribution in order to benefit themselves at our expense.

They spread lies because they know they can count on us being too busy to search for the truth, especially when the falsehood fits so conveniently into our prejudices. Meanwhile, they sabotage the educational systems and suborn the media that could teach us how to critically analyze the messages to reveal their flaws.


China could pose a serious land threat to its Asian neighbors, but its ability to project force is minimal at best. Certainly it is not a territorial threat to the United States, although it could probably make things very difficult for Japan... until its navy and air force are sunk and it's reduced to glaring threateningly across the ocean.

edited 3rd Aug '15 2:35:24 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Total posts: 417,856
Top