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JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#97226: Jul 27th 2015 at 1:48:03 PM

I was trying to say that deporting illegal immigrants is not comparable to the crimes of the Nazi's, not that we should do it.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#97227: Jul 27th 2015 at 1:51:29 PM

[up][up]How is theft of land not an example of violating the laws of another state? The Native Americans didn't have specific written laws in most cases but they still had a sense of boundaries between their land and the land of another group. Ultimately both cases involve someone from a foreign land taking up residence in the land of another society.

[up]Whether they're being sent to a death camp or another country it still involves the government kicking down doors and arresting people en masse.

edited 27th Jul '15 1:55:10 PM by Kostya

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#97228: Jul 27th 2015 at 1:53:21 PM

[up][up]I dunno, I think mass systematic deportation based on one's ethnicity is pretty fucking shady.

And no, this isn't about them being in the country illegally, it's about them being Mexican. You don't see anyone ever giving a shit about illegal Canadian immigrants or European or even African ones.

And last I checked mass deportation was the Nazi's original idea before they realized it was too costly and impractical. And thus the Final Solution to the Jewish Question was answered.

I'm not saying Republicans wanna send Mexicans to death camps, just there are some extremely uncomfortable parallels is all.

edited 27th Jul '15 1:56:22 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#97229: Jul 27th 2015 at 1:53:53 PM

[up][up]Um, because they didn't have a state? Yeah, taking the land and claiming it wasn't there's wasn't wrong but that's not what we were discussing.

[up]To be fair, there are a lot fewer of those. Most of these people wouldn't care because of racism like you're implying but what you describe also isn't anywhere near the same scale.

edited 27th Jul '15 1:56:20 PM by LSBK

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#97230: Jul 27th 2015 at 1:56:38 PM

[up]What makes you think they didn't have a state? It wasn't as organized as modern nations are but the individual tribes still had their own separate identities, land, customs, and authority figures. You don't need a formal piece of paper to make it a state.

edited 27th Jul '15 1:57:16 PM by Kostya

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#97231: Jul 27th 2015 at 1:56:42 PM

You don't need a formal Nation-State to have laws, customs, and, more importantly, will. Furthermore, the State is not the only legitimate political unit.

edited 27th Jul '15 1:57:44 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#97232: Jul 27th 2015 at 1:57:55 PM

[up][up]I was just saying the situations weren't exactly the same. And maybe you don't need those things but they sure make things much less complicated.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#97233: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:00:12 PM

I don't think I said they were exactly the same but for all practical purposes the British did move onto another society's land without their consent. That's all illegal immigration is.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#97234: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:00:25 PM

Well, the thing about the Canadians is this: Who leaves Canada to come to America illegally? No, really. Things are pretty nice in Canada, so people aren't exactly fleeing that nation to come to the US.

Mexico, however, is not a terribly nice place, so people want to flee it to come into the US. Also, criminal gangs in Mexico want to smuggle things into the US.

Leviticus 19:34
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#97235: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:02:05 PM

They're criminals, rapists, and drug addicts, though some of them, one can assume, are good people.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97236: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:08:44 PM

[up][up] So, the situation is different because of a catastrophic humanitarian and economic situation in our southern neighbors... and that means we need to forcibly send all of those people back because... why? Our laws are broken. They need to be fixed.

edited 27th Jul '15 2:08:59 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#97237: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:21:08 PM

[up] And I guess the US's Southern neighbours need fixing as well?

Keep Rolling On
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#97238: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:22:08 PM

[up][up] A better question is what gives them (illegals) the right to enter the US and become citizens automatically while the ones that follow the law and apply for citizenship ship wait for years on end to get in?

Something wrong there.

Now if we were to stream line legal immigration, I don't think we'd have this problem.

Then again, some people won't apply anyway...

[up] In some places, South of the border is a lost cause, its like some failed states in Africa. All that money and nothing to show for it, cause corrupt governments and warlords seize the aid for themselves. Though in their case it'd be Cartels..

edited 27th Jul '15 2:33:44 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#97239: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:23:13 PM

[up][up]Yup. {Whips out a shotgun and proceeds to do some 'fixing'.}

edited 27th Jul '15 2:23:29 PM by kkhohoho

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97240: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:23:13 PM

[up][up]That is a serious issue, of course. It does create a double standard, but that's why I recommend creating an "economic refugee" status that lets them work legally in the country.

edited 27th Jul '15 2:23:23 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#97241: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:28:01 PM

Hey. If you drop by this far south, last time the U.S tried to fix us via shotguns, we burnt them alive.

It is now a national holiday.

Just sayin' I could use more national Holidays cuz' I like work breaks.

Silliness aside, you seem to be underestimating Mexico. It is not as much of a hellhole as people make it out to be. The problem is that it is the borders which are drug infested hellholes...the borders that are near the U.S...

...that said, I personally would not like to live in Mexico, but whatever.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#97242: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:34:05 PM

[up]Uh, hey, I know you were joking, but honestly, I'm sorry. For whatever reason, I thought that GreenMantle was talking about the South, as in the Southern USA. Now that, I wouldn't mind doing some fixin'.tongue

edited 27th Jul '15 2:34:32 PM by kkhohoho

Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#97243: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:45:44 PM

[up] Hey! I'm originally from Florida(now living in Maryland) that's offensive tongue

But seriously I suppose Florida could use some restructuring...

[down] Its the weirdest state in the Union, or is that Alaska? Texas? Its a toss up.grin

edited 27th Jul '15 2:58:34 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#97244: Jul 27th 2015 at 2:48:50 PM

To make up for the botched reconstruction?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#97245: Jul 27th 2015 at 3:41:57 PM

The thing about illegal "Mexicans" is that basically the people complaining about them don't seem to care about telling the difference between what countries many of them are from. Lots of people are just coming in from South America, just coming through Mexico because the routes and smugglers are already there. Mexico itself is slowly improving.

The thing is, if we figured out how to deal with our southern neighbors in better ways we could help to make it so that the economic opportunities were in those countries.

I feel like new immigration laws aren't the most effective way to handle it (though handing out more work visas would work for a lot of these people), so much as to lend aid in some form to the places these people are coming from. Then they wouldn't feel desperate enough to leave and come here.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#97246: Jul 27th 2015 at 4:06:26 PM

@ Economic refugee status: How could a person qualify under this system of things. Personally I believe refugee status should be exclusively for those who are ether in fear for their lives(and or safety) or the lives of their loved ons,i.e gays in many African countries, or the Syrian refugees. Or those who cannot go home for the forceable future, i.e the Syrians again or those who live in Eastern Ukraine, or those who face chronic and extreme discrimination at home, i.e Muslims in Myanmar, or religious minorities in some parts of the Middle East. The rest are migrants. Mind you their is nothing morally wrong with being a migrant. Hell, by taking so much risk to improve their fortunes in life, in my view, illegal immigrants frequently display much more of the classical American spirit than many actual Americans. I just don't know how to wrap my head around this problem.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#97247: Jul 27th 2015 at 4:08:30 PM

[up] The problem is that our immigration laws are broken, full stop. That and we've got southern neighbors whose economic and political situations are utterly catastrophic and who need our help, but we aren't providing it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Skycobra51 A suitable case for treatment from The US of A Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Only knew I loved her when I let her go
A suitable case for treatment
#97248: Jul 27th 2015 at 4:14:30 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, because that aid most certainly will go to the people in those countries.

The centralized parts may be improving but Juarez sure as hell ain't or the rest of northren mexico for that matter.

[up] They're more than broken. They're a cluster fuck, especially applying for citizenship.

[down] The problem with deportation is that how can you tell who's who? If they've already been here for years and pay taxes, you might as well make them citizens. Now illegal immigrants who are felons on the other hand...

edited 27th Jul '15 4:25:22 PM by Skycobra51

Look upon my privilege ye mighty and despair.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#97249: Jul 27th 2015 at 4:18:18 PM

Interestingly enough, one of my ancestors was a Canadian who crossed the boarder illegally back in the late 18th,or early 19th century. Apparently, as the story goes a lake separating him from the US froze over, so he walked across it. Again, I must reiterate that I don't support deporting all illegal immigrants, I just don't think doing so would be a crime equivalent to the Holocaust or some of Nazi Germany's other actions.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#97250: Jul 27th 2015 at 4:26:15 PM

I don't know if I'd go that far but for some of these people we'd probably be sending them to their deaths. Immigrants might be treated pretty badly in the US but it's probably still better than some of these other countries.


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