TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#96901: Jul 22nd 2015 at 6:13:02 AM

Honestly, punishment doesn't really work as a tool for getting a better, safer, more functional society so why should we keep it up? I mean, you already have people committing crimes to go to jail because people have no other way to pay for health care so right now, that's already a thing. It's not very many people and the way to deal with that is just universal heath care.

You know what else the people who commit crimes to get into jail have in common? They all are very calm and weirdly orderly about it. They don't hurt anyone. Inevitably, they 'hold up' a bank by giving the teller a note asking for money, and then politely sitting and waiting for the cops to show up.

The only way it would be dangerous for anyone is if there's an unrelated black person in the building when the cops show up.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#96902: Jul 22nd 2015 at 6:38:27 AM

That still sounds cruel.

What I described is the raw fact of what the prison system does as a minimum. That's the basic punishment that you do to someone simply by locking them up.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#96903: Jul 22nd 2015 at 7:22:19 AM

You guys seem to be operating under the idea that a lot of these guys even want to improve. While that holds true for the low level offenders and those who just have either made a poor decision or broke a minor law, the likelihood of improvement drops to nil if no one hasn't given them another direction in their lives by the time they hit 18. It's all downwards there, with only a few true cases of success stories afterwards; recidivism is more often than not the end result.

And truth be told, the offenders in question often don't help themselves, psychologically or socially. Many come to see themselves not only as social outcasts with little hope of redemption or truly fitting in, and either fully commit themselves to a life of crime or just start placing blame on either the "System", or worse, upon the people around them.

I got to witness the latter and it's type of vicious loop twice: once at my old security job with the Hilton Guam, and another with a... let's just say, a poorly chosen "friend", in retrospect.

The prior happened because the guy felt like the job was at a dead end and that he could take advantage of the job, and also because a relative of his happened to be in a financial bind after being bailed out on some other charge. Thus, he decided to screw over the entire security department by helping an outsider (or possibly even the bailiff in question) steal over $25,000 worth in valuables from guest rooms with security's master keys. Got us all fired, and even afterwards despite us knowing he did it indirectly, the guy threatened to sue me and the others who tried to report him. Hotel ultimately decided it wasn't worth pursuing the case as per the police department's statement that the evidence was lacking. And no, he didn't improve afterwards either: not even a year later, the guy got into financial trouble with a chinese contractor/hardware salesman he was working with. He claimed the contractor wasn't paying him enough for the contract and other things, and decided to given him hell by reporting him to the newspaper for a variety of billing and customer issues, in addition to using H2 workers (read: foreign contractors) improperly. And that ain't the only stuff he's done.

The case with the crappy friend happened because a) she's extremely self centered and b) knows how to put up a good poker face when dealing with trouble... or her grandmother, when it comes to begging for money or help. Basically, she just gets into friendships until she tires of it, and then tries to find a way to rip them off - sometimes by keeping "borrowed" items, sometimes money, basically whatever she needs. I was stupid enough to fall for it, twice. Actually had to sue her to make her act reasonable at one point. At least that worked, but she sure as heck hasn't felt remorse about it.

I know what's next... you're all gonna say I'm taking personal cases and using it to judge others. Well that's thing - these guys aren't singular, isolated cases: tons of douchebags exist out there, and many of them have no intention of improving... and no amount of rehab will help. I suppose if you can catch them at the early stage and make them see the error of their ways it'll work, but after a point you've gotta just call a snake a snake and be ready to lock it away, lest you want them to keep damaging the livelihood of others.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96904: Jul 22nd 2015 at 7:26:51 AM

That would be a fair assessment if the treatment of those criminals were even across the entire economic spectrum. Just as many unrepentant assholes exist among the non-poor, but they go to jail a lot less frequently and remain there for less time.

Whether rehabilitation is possible is less relevant than the question of whether our society bothers investing resources in trying to rehabilitate people in the first place.

edited 22nd Jul '15 7:27:55 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#96905: Jul 22nd 2015 at 7:34:58 AM

[up][up]Soooooo, you are aware that you are giving nothing but anecdotes, and then proceed to give us nothing else to back up your claims?

There's statistics from all over the world regarding recidivism and treatment in prison. What do you have?

SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#96906: Jul 22nd 2015 at 7:36:58 AM

[up][up] Well that's the golden question, isn't it?

There's little question that if all the states had effective drug rehab programs with high success rates, we'd be seeing a BIG decrease in all sorts of blue-collar crime. But that's the problem... the states don't have that sort of funding or resources. So that's probably not going to be a practical answer for a long time. Doubly so when parts of the public don't see it as a priority.

[up] What I'm trying to illustrate is that the tone in this thread seems to be that the prison system as it stands is unwarranted. Yet, you're forgetting that not all criminals even want to improve: you have to accept that there's a large amount that you can't release or deal with normal society because of how sociopathic they can be. Only real option with them is to lock them up for extended times, or put serious sanctions upon them. It just happens that America in particular does have an issue with crime rates, leading to us having the penal system over-crowded with those types.

edited 22nd Jul '15 7:46:58 AM by SgtRicko

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#96907: Jul 22nd 2015 at 7:42:47 AM

At least from the side of psychology I can confirm that there are also studies in the psychology side that mention punishment (Not just prison wise I mean) is not as effective in changing behavior as other stuff

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#96908: Jul 22nd 2015 at 7:53:26 AM

[up] If anything, punishment simply makes things worse as the punished will easily come to the belief that their punishers are the ones to blame behind their suffering and that they're the underdog against a corrupt and draconian society and/or government.

To balance things out in this thread, how does the US penal system compare and contrast against that of the Swedish or British ones?

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#96909: Jul 22nd 2015 at 8:05:57 AM

No. Punishment is effective in the immediate short term. That is to say, if someone is about to do something very wrong, it is effective to stop that behavior right then and there with a good slap in the face.

But if you want them to learn that this behavior is wrong and to make them learn to stop it, then the slap won't do much.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#96910: Jul 22nd 2015 at 8:06:33 AM

[up]X4 Any source on it being "a large amount"?

Yes such people exist, the same way that benefit cheats and vote fraudsters exist, their existence is not an adequate excuse for us to give up on thouse who can be rehabilitated, thouse who need benefits and thouse who deserve to be able to vote.

edited 22nd Jul '15 8:06:57 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#96911: Jul 22nd 2015 at 8:55:24 AM

[up]Again, I never said we have to give up on those with lesser issues or a case of bad judgement. I'm talking about the recidivists.

As for the "large amount", I'm referring to the state correctional facilities and how they often end up making the inmates incarcerated within worse, partly due to the gangs and negative peer influence. Wish I could give you guys something - my google-fu is failing me and all I've got is prior info collected from my classes.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#96912: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:17:59 AM

The fact that correction faculties make such people into hardened criminals rather disproves your point, as the majority of criminals aren't hardened when they go in and are made hardened by the system.

So the large amount is a creation of the current system, not something that has occurred naturally.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#96913: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:18:41 AM

I've recently become convinced that the death penalty should be made an option for life-without-parole set, but as their right to die rather than be made to live like that under the "right to die" mindset.

John Kasich of Ohio is in the GOP race, btw. But he accepted the medicaid expansion, so he's going to be blown to hell right out of the gate.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#96914: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:22:11 AM

[up][up][up]I see where you're coming from, and you're right that our prison system sucks at rehabilitating people, but that doesn't prove that prisons cannot successfully rehabilitate criminals.

Norway's prison system has a recidivism rate of 20 percent, compared to the US' 76.6%. (Source: Business Insider) So while yes, sometimes you just can't fix someone, it appears that you can in the majority of cases, and that we're not doing it (our prisons are schools for crime, not tools for developing civilized human beings).

Of course, if we wanted to impose a Norwegian-style prison system in its entirety, we'd have to start by silencing the voting public. I know it's kind of taboo around this forum to take a position of straight moralism on a public policy issue, but there it is: a lot of people will not support sanctions they deem insufficiently punitive, even if those are the best sanctions for preventing recidivism and protecting the public, because crime should be punished. Nonetheless, we've seen a lot of successses in diversionary programs that use less punitive and more rehabilitative methods.

In a Criminal Justice class, we took a look at Anchorage's drug courts, where first-time offenders (not just drug offenders - a lot of crooks steal to support a drug habit, remember) are given drug treatment and, if they stay clean, can have their charges dismissed. Don't have a statistic handy, but from what we read, it's doing pretty well at getting people to clean up their acts and become productive members of society.

edited 22nd Jul '15 9:22:27 AM by Ramidel

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#96915: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:24:39 AM

Yeah, crime and punishment is one of the fields where the Republicans are more in touch with the average American. Our people don't like the idea of prisoners not being made to suffer to some degree.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96916: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:16:23 AM

And the average American, in turn, has more in common morality-wise with the audience of Roman gladiatorial coliseums than with the citizens of 20th century nations.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:19:29 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#96917: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:18:43 AM

Disagree, we can't rock skirts and robes like they could.

Which is such a shame.

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96918: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:20:07 AM

I revised my post. Anyway, it has a lot to do with our Puritanical underpinnings, I would assume. For some reason, hardcore religious folk seem to be incredibly intolerant of deviant behavior, when a reading of their holy books would seem to indicate that they ought to practice forgiveness.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:21:02 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#96919: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:23:57 AM

So you're telling me the English had the right idea when they shipped their fundies off to some uncharted land far away?

We need to find a new continent.

Oh really when?
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#96920: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:25:35 AM

Calvinism, i think. Everyone is where they deserve to be, so the fortunate and the unfortunate by and large indicate their uprightness with god.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#96921: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:30:21 AM

I propose we send the nutjob fundies to uncharted land.

That is, the middle of the ocean.

And we provide them with the necesary materials for their sure arrival to their destination.

That is, cement shoes.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#96922: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:37:31 AM

Seems inhumane. Surely we could just relocate all of them to somewhere nobody lives, like Idaho.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#96923: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:38:36 AM

I'm still down for finding someway to separate Florida from the American mainland and letting it just float away.

Oh really when?
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#96924: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:38:53 AM

Yeah. Poor fishes.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#96925: Jul 22nd 2015 at 11:00:06 AM

There was some reality show on the other day about parents putting there kids in jail to 'teach them a lesson ' like for doing drugs or joining a gang, etc. I can't comprehend how that's supposed to teach them anything instead of traumatize them and expose them to worse people


Total posts: 417,856
Top