TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#96876: Jul 21st 2015 at 6:58:47 PM

But you could at least move the goalposts down. For instance, you could craft new maximum sentences for certain lesser crimes, which would be one standard deviation above the average sentence given to white convicts for that crime. Essentially throw out the standards on black sentencing and make everyone adhere to the standards on white sentencing, which yes, could still leave whites off the hook, but would put the blacks of tomorrow where the whites of today are, at least, and that's something.

Of course, that would have the "reverse racism" crowd screaming their heads off, but what do we care what they think?

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#96877: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:04:37 PM

Why does leniency in sentencing matter so much? Just make sure the punishment fits the crime.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#96878: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:05:06 PM

I really can't see that there's entirely that much we can do. There's a couple loopholes we could close but I think the legal battle is mostly over.

Now it's a cultural one.

Oh really when?
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#96879: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:07:01 PM

[up][up][up]

If I'm reading this correctly (I actually pretty sure that I'm not), are you suggesting legislation that would call for different punishments for when black people and white people commit the same crime?

edited 21st Jul '15 7:07:20 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#96880: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:08:32 PM

Their point is that judges will probably be racist against minorities anyway. While we can't fix that easily we can at least make it a little easier for them.

edited 21st Jul '15 7:08:47 PM by Kostya

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#96881: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:14:29 PM

We have plenty of data on how marginalized and disadvantaged people are affected by legal and social structures. As it's been noted before, this is far less of a legislative issue and far more of a cultural deficiency that we quite frankly don't have the guts to confront at present. Calling people social justice warriors and professional victims is NOT helping at all, and the callousness of internet subcultures seems to be partly responsible for encouraging lack of empathy like it's some sort of fashion statement. The cool kids aren't offended by anything.

For example, numerous leaps and bounds in the field of clinical psychology and neurology have shown that bigotry can actually be empirically measured and quantified through the observation of brain activity. Movies, toys and TV shows have become more gendered than in previous decades, and schools and offices are more segregated in many parts of the US. Despite some of our best legal efforts, we still have deeply ingrained beliefs, practices and attitudes that remain vigorous due to, among other things, a simple lack of interaction with people who are different from us.

With Roof, I'm not all that concerned with the type of weapon he was using, his state of mental health or whether or not the victims should have been armed. My primary concern is the ideology he was given as part of his outlook on society and life. I'm not proposing a Minority Report solution to the problem, but Roof doesn't surprise me that much because, unfortunately, he really just acted on what a lot of white people in the South have been thinking for a long time.

edited 21st Jul '15 7:30:23 PM by Aprilla

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#96882: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:26:51 PM

The prison-industrial complex and criminal punishment in general shouldn't exist in the first place.

KingNick1995 from Somewhere over the waynebow Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#96883: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:50:02 PM

Exactly who thought for profit prison was a good idea?

Presenting!
Ghostninja109 from there, not here. Since: Aug, 2011
#96884: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:50:35 PM

We should at the very least get the private sector out of the justice system.

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#96885: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:18:02 PM

Because the private sector is axiomatically more efficient than the public sector, one, two it allows a lot of people to get very rich.

Although i agree, we need to decriminalize drug possession, socialize all prisons, and then retrain most of the police forces in the country. Any prison workers who lose a job due to reduced prison populations is automatically given an equivalent public-sector job elsewhere (guards are retrained as police or as security for other government buildings, administration and staff moved to, say, hospitals or something), because private prisons are legit the biggest employers in a lot of rural areas, but they must be downsized and they must be owned by the state.

KingNick1995 from Somewhere over the waynebow Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#96886: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:26:32 PM

I'm also all for shifting the punishment focus of prison to a rehabilitative one where the inmates are taught all the skills they need to be productive citizens

Presenting!
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#96887: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:28:55 PM

The problem is that if the prisons are too cushy, people aren't going to see why they shouldn't commit crimes. There needs to be some kind of punishment involved.

Leviticus 19:34
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#96888: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:32:44 PM

That doesn't really seem to a be a problem in places where prisons are much less horrible than ours.

edited 21st Jul '15 8:33:01 PM by LSBK

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#96889: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:33:30 PM

Just separate the violent offenders from the non-violent ones. If someone has a life sentence it's not like they need to be retrained or anything.

KingNick1995 from Somewhere over the waynebow Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#96890: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:37:05 PM

That's why i said shift it. Obviously lifers are lifers but we do need someway to ensure that those going to prison temporarily don't come back again and again

Presenting!
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#96891: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:13:35 PM

Fun fact: people do intentionally commit felonies so they can go to prison for the free healthcare and food. This is not a flaw in the prison system, it is a sign that our society is so fucked up that sometimes the only place you can get food and healthcare is in prison.

For most people, however, prisons that are fairly nice and (most importantly) safe places to live reduce the risk of recidivism. (And nicer prisons, strangely enough, are safer ones.)

Know-age Since: May, 2010
#96892: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:14:14 PM

@Aprilla

"For example, numerous leaps and bounds in the field of clinical psychology and neurology have shown that bigotry can actually be empirically measured and quantified through the observation of brain activity."

This sounds really interesting. Do you have any links handy by chance?

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#96893: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:29:54 PM

[up][up]In Brazil wives of inmates with children do receive up to one and a half minimum wage monthly from social security services, it isn't uncommon for families having the patriarch arrested over a minor felony in order to receive the support.

Since our jail system is FUBAR and would make Rikers look like a 5 star hotel, the people doing this are in deep fucking shit.

Some minor felonies should get more focus on rehabilitation, but for me murder, rape and pedophilia should be the ones that should award punishment. Now for career criminals, there is the problem with people who are criminals not because of the lack of choices but because they like being criminals or get much better status as being one, there should also have some punitive measures where the benefits of being a criminal are minimal when compared to the punishment.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#96894: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:42:29 PM

[up][up]I don't have a neatly packaged electronic source that is readily available, but I can give you some names to get you started.

Dr. Glenn H. Miller of George Washington University Medical Center has done extensive research on the psychological trauma incurred by victims of racism, which is a closely related topic.

Dr. David Amodio works in social psychology, and he and his peers have measured implicit racial biases via fMRI scans in the amygdala.

I can't link this because JSTOR doesn't allow open access, but there's also this one:

Hodson, G. & Busseri, M.A. (2012). Bright minds and dark attitudes: Lower cognitive ability predicts greater prejudice through right-wing ideology and low intergroup contact. Psychological Science, 23, 187-195.

And this one from EBSCO Host:

Wright, D. & Taylor, D.M.(2009). "The social psychology of cultural diversity: Social prejudice, stereotyping and discrimination," The SAGE Handbook of Social Psychology, Concise Student Edition. M. Hogg & J. Cooper (Eds.), Los Angeles, CA: SAGE Publications, pps. 361-387.

Of course, it's not a simple matter of "scan this person's brain - he's 42 percent racist", but we're getting a much clearer view of how cognition and interpersonal perception are affected by racist ideology and lack of exposure to ethnic groups outside of one's typical environment.

edited 21st Jul '15 9:53:26 PM by Aprilla

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#96895: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:32:45 PM

I'd suggest a separation of punishment and rehab. A person is first sent to an area specifically intended to be punished in some manner, and then sent to the nicer area for rehabilitation. Send them back to the penance zone every once in a while to make sure they're not too comfortable, and more if they misbehave.

Leviticus 19:34
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#96896: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:42:21 PM

I've been to rehab centers several times. They're better than prison, but they aren't exactly the most free, cozy places you'd like to go if you had the choice. I think that's enough, especially if we want to help these people with drug addictions, it's better to look at them as victims than as criminals.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#96897: Jul 22nd 2015 at 2:35:18 AM

Here's an idea for a punishment that can be done alongside rehab, lock the person away from their friends, their family and everyone they love, take tight control over their time and deny them free contact with thouse they most love.

Seriously, the most important things to most people is thouse they love. That right there is what is taken away from people when they go to prison. Imagine if you were only allowed to see your friends and family for a few hours every so often and that's if you're lucky enough for them to make the effort to see you and be able to make that journey (after all you could be put in a prison pretty far away from them).

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#96898: Jul 22nd 2015 at 5:08:44 AM

That still sounds cruel.

Something my mom brings up every time I talk about prison reform is people who can't be rehabilitated. She acknowledges that the prison system is screwed up but it always comes back to this point for some reason

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#96899: Jul 22nd 2015 at 5:59:06 AM

Sweden has weekend prison where you check in and it works great for them.

Why?

They have some of the best education and medical systems in the world.

Punishment is a very draconian and outdated issue. Sure, there are always going to be some elements who refuse to rehabilitate. But magically, all they do is just stay in prison because they fail their parole hearing. It's not a big deal.

I'm even open to keeping the death penalty to deal with the Charles Mansons and Ed Geins of the world, but I'm not going to be disappointed if it's gone either.

One day the States will grow up. And when they do, quality of life will improve for everyone across the board.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#96900: Jul 22nd 2015 at 6:07:33 AM

[up][up]My general response to that argument is "who cares?" While I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are people like that, I'm quite certain that they make up a tiny minority of the total prison population. Who cares if born assholes get a slightly more humane treatment? They're still in prison anyway.

I understand that to someone with retribution on their minds, it must be quite galling to let those sort of people have anything at all, but one shouldn't let Perfect Solution Fallacy cloud their minds like that. You could significantly reduce crime by treating people in prison like people and helping them on the path towards proper employment. Who cares if some people are unwilling to accept such help?


Total posts: 417,856
Top