TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#96776: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:20:36 PM

I feel that this is a case of being right for the wrong reasons. It's not Trump's lack of military experience overseas that bothers me, but his criticism of McCain in general. Lack of military service shouldn't stop one from lodging complaints towards one's peers, and McCain has a better, if questionable note , understanding of foreign affairs than Trump ever will, military service or not.

I'm saying this partly because I've grown tired of the "military = better person" cultural motif that Americans like to throw around.

edited 18th Jul '15 2:21:30 PM by Aprilla

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#96777: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:22:33 PM

Especially because most people go to the service because of a lack of other socioeconomic opportunities, not out of a special desire to serve one's country.

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#96778: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:22:47 PM

Agreed. As brave as the veteran amputee athlete is for the ESPY, everyone's acting like Caitlyn Jenner stole the award for a "lesser" act, even though coming out as transsexual and being badly injured in war are two different kinds of bravery.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#96779: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:25:32 PM

I get the impression that a lot of people don't say anything about that because of how easy it is to make it sound like you're devaluing any sacrifices they may have made.

I recall pointing this out to one guy (specifically that him being a veteran does not somehow make his opinion more valid than mine or anyone else's concerning something that was completely non military related) and he started calling me a "liberal ingrate" because he fought for me and his country and stuff like that.

edited 18th Jul '15 2:27:34 PM by LSBK

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#96780: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:26:52 PM

Trump said he avoided service in the Vietnam War through student and medical deferments, adding that he did not serve because he "was not a big fan of the Vietnam war. I wasn't a protester, but the Vietnam war was a disaster for our country."

I think I'd have more respect for him if he did just say he didn't fight because he opposed the war.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#96781: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:30:33 PM

If you think the war being fought was a bad idea and that the U.S. shouldn't have been involved in it, then it makes perfect sense to take a dim view of people who joined the military during that war, since they're helping to further the conflict.

Vietnam's a bit different, though, since most Americans who fought in it weren't actually given a choice.

edited 18th Jul '15 2:31:03 PM by RavenWilder

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#96782: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:35:01 PM

[up] Sort of. It is a reasonable to join a war you don't agree with in order to say, protect your fellow soldiers from harm.

Leviticus 19:34
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#96783: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:36:54 PM

[up][up]That's not entirely true. While conscription was obviously higher at that time in US history, the number of volunteers who participated in the Vietnam conflict is much higher than we've been led to believe by popular media.

edited 18th Jul '15 2:37:02 PM by Aprilla

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#96784: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:41:52 PM

Ah, here's some context; It seems Trump lashed out at McCain in response to the latter's disapproval of Trump's recent rally in Arizona, where he made his usual spiel about evil illegal immigrants.

“It’s very bad,” Mc Cain, who was eager to talk about Trump, told me... He was particularly rankled by Trump’s rally. “This performance with our friend out in Phoenix is very hurtful to me... Because what he did was he fired up the crazies.”

Mc Cain, who has long supported comprehensive immigration reform and was a member of the so-called Gang of Eight that successfully pushed immigration legislation through the Senate in 2013, has been at war with the far right in Arizona for years. “We have a very extreme element within our Republican Party,” Mc Cain said. He then noted that he was personally censured by Arizona Republicans in January of 2014 and has been fighting to push out the extremists in the state G.O.P. ever since. “We did to some degree regain control of the Party.”

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#96785: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:48:27 PM

It always makes me sad to see Mc Cain involved in things. You can tell he's a genuine non crazy conservative who's trapped in an increasingly insane party

Oh really when?
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#96786: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:50:18 PM

Though a point I saw raised elsewhere, aren't the sort of people Trump's courting also generally displeased with McCain for being a moderate, and not a tough enough Republican?

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#96787: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:59:13 PM

I recall pointing this out to one guy (specifically that him being a veteran does not somehow make his opinion more valid than mine or anyone else's concerning something that was completely non military related) and he started calling me a "liberal ingrate" because he fought for me and his country and stuff like that.

Same here, only it was a former friend wanting to continue a fight with me about the Confederate flag by following me to my inbox. I absolutely loathe the "I swore an oath, you didn't" excuse. It's a horrendously lazy rebuttal.

[up][up]I agree, but that's on him. There comes a certain point where it's time to jump ship.

edited 18th Jul '15 3:07:23 PM by Aprilla

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#96788: Jul 18th 2015 at 3:00:00 PM

[up][up] Of course. Trump's assumed the mantle of leadership of the people who thought that Sarah Palin wasn't conservative enough.

edited 18th Jul '15 3:00:05 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#96789: Jul 18th 2015 at 3:03:26 PM

Yes. As the article noted, McCain is no friend of the far right; they publicly censured him for not being conservative enough, but ironically they underestimated his influence and it came back to bite them when he started pressuring far right officials out of the job.

But, as Aprilla said earlier, there's a strong tradition of military service worship in the US that can override other differences dating back to, I dunno, probably George Washington himself, and Trump crossed the line. All the other conservative candidates are calling him out on it, even the official Republican National Committee have condemned him for it.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#96790: Jul 18th 2015 at 3:41:53 PM

I have little sympathy for Mc Cain. He abandoned the Straight Talk Express back in 2006. Part of it is just reaping what you sow.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#96791: Jul 18th 2015 at 5:03:43 PM

[up][up] It's waxed and waned. The current tradition has a lot of it's routes in the desire of the country not to repeat the poor treatment veterans of the Vietnam war were given when they returned.

[up][up][up][up] Easier said than done. I'm 17 and I had trouble just becoming an independent, let alone a Democrat. Compared that to a Senator who is,while not old enough to have seen the dinosaurs, still pretty dam old. I mean I have trouble putting aside my intense dislike for certain Democrats, and I haven't been fighting political battles against them for decades.

Side note, but the man was a massive Cassandra truth on Syria

edited 18th Jul '15 5:08:35 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#96792: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:28:47 PM

[up][up]I don't see how that negates his war record. Just because the man's a hawk doesn't make him worth denigrating for cheap ratings.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#96793: Jul 18th 2015 at 9:23:06 PM

I think Tomu is talking about McCain having somewhat sold out the independence and willingness to speak against both sides that made him a darling to both the media and had gained him a lot of respect, at a minimum, from the left. However there was a sense back in the mid-2000s and definitely on the 2008 election run that McCain abandoned that and tried to tow the line and curry favor with some of the very same people that he's denouncing as "the crazies" now.

Personally I don't hold it too much against him, the guy did what he thought he had to in an uphill battle and compromised a few principles to get additional allies. It was a mistake, but as with many things while I personally think McCain was wrong, he's not bad, the way weasel faced pricks like Cheney, Rove, Trump or the Kochs are.

Now all that said, Trump absolutely crossed lines with his comments, but the Republican party is only getting its panties in a bunch because they are already inclined against Trump and McCain is a venerable party elder. When the establishment was aligned against McCain as in the 2000 Republican primary between McCain and W. Bush, they had no problem with Bush and Rove using every possible dirty trick and unfair accusation against McCain as long as it kept Bush on the path to being nominated. And of course, Republicans have never had a problem with dishonoring the service or sacrifices of liberal veterans, as people like John Kerry or Tammy Duckworth could tell you. So while they're quite correct to rebuke Trump for his comments, it's likely that it would be different if it weren't an outsider doing it to one of their own.

edited 19th Jul '15 5:51:02 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Mopman43 Since: Nov, 2013
#96795: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:33:35 PM

Personally, I quite impressed by Mc Cain's war record. Namely, by the character he showed during his capture. It's my understanding that he was the son of an admiral under no real obligation to serve, was captured, tortured, offered for a prisoner exchange, but repeatedly had them take one of the other prisoners in the camp instead of him. I feel that shows a great deal of moral fiber, something Trump wouldn't recognize if it made off with his toupee.

Also, in regards to cop killings, it is important to remember, Vermont has relatively few minorities; the state is quite literally 95% white. If there is a distinct trend regarding a person being of another race and there likelihood of getting shot, there aren't a whole lot of targets to be found up here.

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#96796: Jul 19th 2015 at 3:51:28 AM

[up] Supposedly, Mc Cain cannot lift his arms above his head today due to having suffered a beating by his captors shortly after hitting the dirt.

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#96797: Jul 19th 2015 at 5:28:44 AM

@96787: "I swore an oath". To the Confederacy?

Trump delenda est
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#96798: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:10:01 AM

Yeah, i never understood the veterans out there who make unironic arguments sympathizing with the South, while still being proud to have served their country.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#96799: Jul 19th 2015 at 9:32:32 PM

Bernie Sanders had over 5,200 people at his appearance at the University of Houston on Sunday night. His campaign had to change the venue Sunday morning after realizing they were going to get more people than expected.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
KingNick1995 from Somewhere over the waynebow Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#96800: Jul 19th 2015 at 9:58:01 PM

In related news #Berniesoblack has taken off on Twitter as the African American community is complaining about Bernie not bringing up race issues in the campaign

Presenting!

Total posts: 417,856
Top