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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#57526: Jul 2nd 2013 at 11:27:37 AM

[up]If there was a risk of him being executed than any EU country could refuse to send him over, but I'm pretty sure the US government is smart enough to keep the death penalty off the table if they need to.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#57527: Jul 2nd 2013 at 11:32:11 AM

Yeah, but there's also the fact that you don't give the middle finger to one of your greatest allies.

And just for the record, if WE don't try to spy on you over the pond in turn, I'd be very surprised. Just the way the game is played.

Update: No english link so far, but the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (Frankfurter General Newspaper) report on their page that he is not getting Asylum here. Cue greens and lefts crying.

edited 2nd Jul '13 11:33:50 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#57528: Jul 2nd 2013 at 11:36:27 AM

^^

I don't think the death penalty is even on the minds of most of the government officials involved. We haven't even had the balls to put spree shooters on death row.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#57529: Jul 2nd 2013 at 11:40:11 AM

Well we don't, but that's because the US and UK apparently have a no spying on each other agreement.

Edit: [up] Those actually involved, no I doubt it's on their minds either. Some Republican members of the House...

edited 2nd Jul '13 11:41:17 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#57530: Jul 2nd 2013 at 11:41:16 AM

[up]

The Americans have spied on us plenty in the past - and we on them. Transatlantic spying put Chuck Yeager past Mach 1 and let Churchill find out about Roosevelt's agreements with Uncle Joe.

[down]

edited 2nd Jul '13 11:42:46 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#57531: Jul 2nd 2013 at 11:42:14 AM

To quote the BBC.

There are a few countries who - supposedly - do not spy on each other. The US and UK have a formal no-spy deal for instance which means they are not supposed to run their own operations in the other's country without consultation.

The US and France have tried to agree a similar deal but failed.

[1]

Plus look at the level of intelligence sharing between the UK and US, we probably wouldn't need to spy on them for much.

Edit: I wasn't saying that we haven't spied on each other, but in modern times I'd question how much we need to, post WWII I doubt there's been much need for us to spy on the US.

edited 2nd Jul '13 11:45:20 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#57532: Jul 2nd 2013 at 12:07:03 PM

[up]Um. We spied on the US all through the Cold War, too, you know. <_< Everybody spied on everybody else. In short, it was a massive Game of Spies. tongue

And, I'm not about to bet it's ever actually stopped, agreements or not. Went even more underground (after being caught flat-footed a few times)? Sure. Can see that. smile

edited 2nd Jul '13 12:07:33 PM by Euodiachloris

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#57533: Jul 2nd 2013 at 12:09:16 PM

Governments may claim not to spy on each other but they still do it. It's almost axiomatic. If you don't, maybe they are, and then they have a notional advantage, etc., etc. It's a big game of I Know You Know I Know, at least until it spills out into the public arena and then everyone pretends to be outraged for a while.

Naivete is charming at times but we can't really afford it at the national level.

edited 2nd Jul '13 12:09:58 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#57534: Jul 2nd 2013 at 12:24:04 PM

Talking on the phone whilst driving is a very silly thing to do. The UK's banned it for ages, so this doesn't seem all that insane to me.

especially the one about driving and cellphones. I hear its almost as bad as drinking when it comes to the impact on awareness/reaction time.

The amount of distraction from talking on a phone is measured to be roughly equivalent to carrying a conversation with a passenger*

, and less than using a GPS assistant. So long as they're not texting or anything, this isn't a reasonable thing.

edited 2nd Jul '13 12:26:41 PM by Pykrete

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#57535: Jul 2nd 2013 at 12:27:22 PM

[up]

Not according to this extensively sourced paper from the National Safety Council.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#57536: Jul 2nd 2013 at 12:38:52 PM

I'm unable to open pdfs from nsc.org on either browser. Just shows up as a blank screen, and IE is saying there are document errors.

I'm assuming it looks like this given the similar title and that it's supposedly secondhand from nsc. You'll notice in one of the sidebars (page 8) they do compare it to passenger conversation, and while it is somewhat worse, the main difference appears to be passengers reacting to driving conditions — which I already said in the hottip. This corroborates. Also here (page 12).

Is it a concern? Certainly. Laws against texting while driving are fine, and dialing isn't a good idea though not one that can really be pragmatically enforced. But using one at all is too far when it can quite easily be responsibly handled — especially when traffic laws are already more concerned with private interests than actual safety.

Case in point, around here you get fined for using a cell phone at all, but the fine is reduced if you buy a Bluetooth. Which isn't shown to be any safer.

edited 2nd Jul '13 12:52:05 PM by Pykrete

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#57537: Jul 2nd 2013 at 12:51:50 PM

[up]X5, I'll take your word for it, it just strikes me as silly that we'd have an actual deal on it if we were still spying on each other. A gentleman's agreement to "totally not spy" is enough for everyone else, why both putting it in writing if we're going to treat it the same way as a gentleman's agreement?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#57538: Jul 2nd 2013 at 12:55:52 PM

[up][up]These papers only convinces me that you shouldn't talk to the driver (which I already knew) and that banning the use of hands free devices is still completely reasonable because it has been shown in studies to have a significant effect on the likelihood of an accident. An effect roughly equivalent to not-hands-free cell phone usage. "But using one at all is too far when it can quite easily be responsibly handled" appears to be demonstrably wrong and that point about the bluetooth loophole is not germane to the issue we're focusing on.

edited 2nd Jul '13 12:59:55 PM by SomeSortOfTroper

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#57539: Jul 2nd 2013 at 12:58:31 PM

Laws take a while to catch up with facts. Talking on a phone is distracting, period, whether it's in your hand or hanging from your ear. I do it all the time, as well, and while I haven't been in a crash because of a phone, the small number of crashes I have been in were mainly caused by distractions or being overly tired. (My first ever accident was at the tender age of 19 and was caused by me doing something stupid because of inexperience.)

edited 2nd Jul '13 1:00:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#57540: Jul 2nd 2013 at 1:02:26 PM

As for "no conversation at all", depends. On long road trips, light conversation can help fight hypnotic road effects, especially at night. Tedium can quite easily be more dangerous than the minor distraction of conversation.

edited 2nd Jul '13 1:06:00 PM by Pykrete

Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#57541: Jul 2nd 2013 at 1:13:28 PM

[up] There have been times I've been driving, and suddenly realize I have zero memory of anything from the last twenty minutes. It's rather scary.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#57543: Jul 2nd 2013 at 1:20:48 PM

Psychologically, dotted lines and evenly-spaced reflectors might be the most horrendously dangerous thing we could have done when building our roads. Future reference: when building long stretches of things that demand continuous attention, don't design them in a way that looks like a James Braid bingo card.

edited 2nd Jul '13 1:23:09 PM by Pykrete

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#57544: Jul 2nd 2013 at 1:50:44 PM

Put the lines in an order that just barely avoids being a pattern. It will bother drivers without making them realize what is bothering them, and it will keep them awake.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#57545: Jul 2nd 2013 at 1:57:34 PM

How about the idea of Shared space?

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#57546: Jul 2nd 2013 at 1:59:29 PM

I'd rather just skip to self-driving cars and reduce crashes by a factor of 100 or more. Expecting the average human to pilot something going 60+ miles per hour on a daily basis in all weather conditions and states of mind is just plain impractical.

edited 2nd Jul '13 1:59:59 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#57547: Jul 2nd 2013 at 1:59:47 PM

A paint roller based on a chaotic double pendulum.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#57548: Jul 2nd 2013 at 2:13:37 PM

@Greenmantle: Dear god, so many people would die if we implemented that in the US. Crosswalks get ignored often enough as is.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#57549: Jul 2nd 2013 at 2:34:21 PM

[up] Then again, where I'm from "Jaywalking" doesn't exist as an offence — it is legal to cross the road anywhere where pedestrians are allowednote .

Actually, that's the same as most places.

edited 2nd Jul '13 2:35:37 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#57550: Jul 2nd 2013 at 3:07:38 PM

RE Snowden, I'm not suggesting there is any behind-the-scenes chessmastering going on by U.S. officials, but it seems to me that it is a lot better for the U.S. that he was able to escape capture, and will likely be taken in by some dictatorship (for reasons Barkey well explained).

If he was tried in the U.S., it would be even more bad publicity. However, it makes it easy to tarnish his name if he accepts asylum from a regime with a terrible human rights record/which respects freedom of speech a lot less than the U.S. (which as noted, Snowden undoubtedly will).

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

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