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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#56426: Jun 13th 2013 at 12:57:00 PM

Then how should it have been addressed?
Personally? I don't think it needed addressing in the first place. It's a legal program that operates under oversight from all three branches of government. It's designed so that they can't even look at the data they're collecting without a FISC warrant, which (like any warrant) has to be limited in scope and breadth. If it were doing something illegal, then there are specific channels in place for whistleblowers to use, rather than just giving the information to the press.

Mass movements are often a coagulation of smaller groups.
True, but things like "leaking classified information" aren't things that can be done on a mass scale. Disobeying an unjust law, and inviting others to do the same, is one thing — that's the heart of civil disobedience. But that doesn't apply to Prism, there's no law for you to disobey. As Fighteer points out, the idea of civil disobedience against Prism is nonsensical.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#56428: Jun 13th 2013 at 1:32:19 PM

Oh, good, SCOTUS is sane at least some of the time.

edited 13th Jun '13 1:32:32 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#56429: Jun 13th 2013 at 1:32:32 PM

Wub! I was kind of expecting the opposite - out of pessimism.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#56430: Jun 13th 2013 at 1:35:22 PM

That's not civil disobedience, that's internet vigilantism, which is illegal and should be prosecuted. Anyway, good luck taking down the NSA.

Of course it's illegal! If it were legal, it wouldn't be civil disobedience! And internet vigilantism is not necessarily incompatible with civil disobedience, either.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#56431: Jun 13th 2013 at 1:38:48 PM

It's a form of terrorism, deathpigeon. Let's not mince words. It has nothing to do with civil disobedience, because it's not "disobeying" the thing it's attacking. It may be done for a noble purpose, but it's no more inherently noble than is throwing bombs or rioting in the streets.

edited 13th Jun '13 2:11:10 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#56432: Jun 13th 2013 at 1:40:17 PM

[up][up] Yes, but how would you take down an organisation with some of the most powerful computers on the planet?

And anyway, if anything like that succeeds it'll be a little more then civil disobedience — it'll be outright terrorism.

edited 13th Jun '13 1:40:32 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
IConfuseMe from Washington, DC Since: Jan, 2010
#56433: Jun 13th 2013 at 1:41:26 PM

It's a legal program that operates under oversight from all three branches of government. It's designed so that they can't even look at the data they're collecting without a FISC warrant, which (like any warrant) has to be limited in scope and breadth. If it were doing something illegal, then there are specific channels in place for whistleblowers to use, rather than just giving the information to the press.

FISA almost never turns down a request. One of the main criticisms of it is that it operates as a rubber stamp body. Of course, the public is not party to those hearings so that criticism can neither be confirmed nor denied. I find that unsettling.

And the fact that it is subject to government oversight is ultimately irrelevant to me. If my concern is that the government is overstepping it's bounds, then why would I trust the government to self-moderate? It amounts to someone saying "Even though I have a history of violating the law and the principles of civil rights in the name of security, take my word for it: I'm not doing that this time."

Gathering information that is not immediately available to the public without probable cause is a severe change in precedent. That they won't look at it (so they say) until they have a warrant (which they are almost never refused) is a level of trust I see absolutely no reason to have.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#56434: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:14:42 PM

"FISA almost never turns down a request." That could just as easily be because there aren't that many illegitimate requests. You're right that we can't know because the deliberation isn't public, but that's what Congressional oversight is supposed to handle. The program is supposed to be secret because they don't want to alert the people being investigated. That's the whole point.

Do police announce warrants in the newspaper prior to executing them? No, because it would alert the targets of the warrants. Similar principle. (And yes, I recognize that the process is transparent after the fact. Doesn't change the basic point.)

edited 13th Jun '13 2:17:41 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#56435: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:15:11 PM

What about genes that cukd be used to improve human life? I'm guessing those can still be patented ?

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#56436: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:19:04 PM

It's a form of terrorism, deathpigeon.

it'll be outright terrorism.

...The fuck? How the fuck is that terrorism? Terrorism, to define it colloquially, is violence against civilians in order to achieve a political end with the intent of the killing causing terror. Webster defines it as "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion" [1]. Oxford defines it as "the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims" [2]. Dictionary.com defines it as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes" [3]. Under none of those definitions is a DDoS attack ever terrorism. So what definition are you using? How the fuck is that terrorism?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#56437: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:25:10 PM

A DDoS attack is electronic warfare: violence against a computer system's owners and users. It causes disruption of the system's proper function, potentially jeopardizing commerce and/or safety. It damages the victim, both in terms of the above disruption and in terms of the costs of remediating and protecting against the attack. It diminishes confidence in the usability of the system.

DDoS attacks are often a form of extortion: Give me something I want or I'll make your system unusable. As such, they are intended to create fear in the victim: fear that their systems can be made unusable at any time with no recourse other than to do what the attacker wishes.

In short, they are violence for the purpose of creating fear, in order to achieve a desired political or economic outcome.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
IConfuseMe from Washington, DC Since: Jan, 2010
#56438: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:35:23 PM

That definition is too general.

Using almost the exact same definition, boycotts are also terrorism.

A boycott is economic warfare: violence against a business's owners and users. It causes disruption of the business's proper function, potentially jeopardizing commerce and/or safety. It damages the victim, both in terms of the above disruption and in terms of the costs of remediating and protecting against the boycott. It diminishes confidence in the usability of the business.

Boycotts are often a form of extortion: Give me something I want or I'll make your business unsuccessful. As such, they are intended to create fear in the victim: fear that their business can be made unsuccessful at any time with no recourse other than to do what the attacker wishes.

That said, I strongly disagree that one should DDOS the government. Seems like it can only end badly. I just think your definition of terrosism far too vague.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#56439: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:36:24 PM

Terrorism is explicitly defined as violence against a civilian entity for political purposes. An action against the NSA is by definition not terrorism.

edited 13th Jun '13 6:45:38 PM by Pykrete

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#56440: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:43:32 PM

Terrorism is explicitly defined as attacking a civilian entity for political purposes.

Then I guess the 9/11 attack against the Pentagon doesn't count as Terrorism, or the numerous times British Forces were attacked during The Troubles, or IEDs in Afghanistan and Iraq?

edited 13th Jun '13 2:43:47 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#56441: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:48:26 PM

If it's against a standing army or government entity, it's whatever degree of war or revolt happens to fit best.

All of those instances, it should be noted, happened alongside terrorism against civilians as well.

[down] That too.

edited 13th Jun '13 2:50:02 PM by Pykrete

IConfuseMe from Washington, DC Since: Jan, 2010
#56442: Jun 13th 2013 at 2:48:52 PM

9/11 counts because civilian aircraft was used, don't know enough about the troubles to make a claim for that one, and civilians are often often caught in IE Ds. I haven't checked the statistic in a while but last I remembera significant hunk of IED casualties are civilian.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#56443: Jun 13th 2013 at 3:01:06 PM

"Give me what I want or I'll make your system unusable" is a perfect description of the '60s bus boycotts in Alabama. And Gandhi's March to the Sea. And the Velvet Revolution. And the People Power Revolution in the Phillipines.

That said, DDOS seems like a poor approach. I mean, getting into a hardware and software war with the guys who have Pentagon R&D on speed dial? I think setting up shadow networks and noncompliant email cooperatives with the best encryption the script kiddies can manage would be a better approach.

EDIT: Shut up Bill Maher.

edited 13th Jun '13 3:02:12 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#56444: Jun 13th 2013 at 4:54:11 PM

Boycotts exercise a consumer's right to not purchase a good or service. Of course it's harmful to the company so affected, but to equate that to vandalism or terrorism is to say that companies have a right to compel people to buy from them, which is absurd.

Hacking and DoS attacks, on the other hand, are deliberate attempts to render the business, organization, or whatever unusable by anyone. You can protest outside a Wal-Mart or refuse to shop there, but you can't block the entrance, board up the doors, cut its electrical wires, steal its merchandise, etc.

edited 13th Jun '13 4:55:47 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#56445: Jun 13th 2013 at 5:05:14 PM

I think equating a DDOS attack to terrorism is... well, retarded. To put it mildly.

Obnoxious, yes. Illegal against certain parties and when you do it at a certain magnitude? Yes. Terrorism? No.

I think that what needed to happen did happen, by leaking this, regardless of what comes, Snowden opened the door to a nationwide conversation about this topic. That's a good thing. Regardless of any details that affect PRISM itself, PRISM is just one program. The real effects of this event are going to be an open and national dialogue on internal security and espionage, and what the American People define as acceptable. I feel that's a good thing.

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#56446: Jun 13th 2013 at 5:09:25 PM

x-posted from the mil-thread:

White House: Syria crosses 'red line' with use of chemical weapons on its people

Washington (CNN) — Syria has crossed a 'red line' with its use of chemical weapons, including the nerve agent sarin gas, against rebels, a move that is prompting the United States to increase the "scale and scope" of its support for the opposition, the White House said Thursday.

CNN.com, foxnews.com has a similar story. wsj.com:

U.S. Stepping Up 'Military Support' to Syrian Rebels

WASHINGTON—President Barack Obama authorized his administration to provide arms to rebels fighting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, officials briefed on the decision said Thursday, after the White House said it had confirmed that Damascus used chemical weapons in the country's civil war.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#56447: Jun 13th 2013 at 5:11:13 PM

So, what are the odds that SOG and other such task forces will be working in Syria now?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#56448: Jun 13th 2013 at 5:11:54 PM

[up][up][up]Well Cyber-terrorism is a thing.tongue

[up][up]Well I hope it goes as well as Libya.

edited 13th Jun '13 5:12:10 PM by theweirdKiddokun

The Reaper Games starts anew.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#56449: Jun 13th 2013 at 5:20:15 PM

We have a thread for this already, don't we...?

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#56450: Jun 13th 2013 at 6:43:14 PM

What about genes that could be used to improve human life? I'm guessing those can still be patented ?

It's complicated.

In other news:

Ralph Nader Slams Obama Again: ‘Has There Ever Been A Bigger Con Man In White House?’

Senators Wyden & Mark Udall: We Have Seen No Evidence NSA Surveillance Has Prevented ‘Dozens Of Terrorist Events’

Senator Jeff Flake apologized Wednesday for homophobic, racist and anti-Semitic comments posted online by his teenage son.

edited 13th Jun '13 6:43:35 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

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