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cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#56176: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:27:03 PM

Too tired for elaborate post, but no, Congress definitely did not function like how it functions now. There's a reason our hatred for Congress has been climbing recently.

Want to know the straight truth?

The goddamn GOP is holding us back from progressing. We're not getting anything done, and many, at the very least sane, Democrats are being blamed for the crimes of the minority asshole jerks. And I'm... I'm fucking sick and tired of this bullshit.

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#56177: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:28:46 PM

So now we reach victim blaming. Lovely.

And then the way you dismiss the CDC's research, dating to the 90's, which you likely haven't read and therefore don't know their methodology, and furthermore no longer have the ability to verify because one faction decided that it was SO problematic for them that they had to permanently reduce the CDC's funding and block them from researching the topic again. Again, lovely.

When it comes to guns, I admit, some details need fleshing out. But the ideas being put forward by republicans in just about every other fucking category, economics, minority rights, women's rights, international relations, I have not seen a single proposal worth seriously considering.

When republicans are blocking even the most mundane of appointments to keep the president's approval rating low, when they have voted more than 30 times to try to repeal one law unsuccessfully and have stated that they'd gladly do it every week, that is active obstructionism, and quite different from someone proposing laws without knowing what they're doing.

[up][up][up]You know, amazingly enough, Democrats DID NOT try to block everything that Bush Jr did. They didn't with Reagan, either. They didn't make it their guiding goal.

edited 8th Jun '13 11:30:38 PM by Enkufka

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#56178: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:29:38 PM

@Ace Crap! I forgot we did this before. Sorry, miss.

I get your point about Dubya (who I actually wish had been a one-term President, and I fully believe he and ole' Jeb totally hosed the American people and stole that election, but alas that's a different topic for a different time), but the point is, of course Mitch McConnell is gonna say they want to make him a one-term president.

Now, the constant filibusters, yeah, that Republican dog trick is getting tired.

edited 8th Jun '13 11:30:16 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#56179: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:29:58 PM

It definitely messes with things a bit that my state has most of those things that you want, such as the magazine limit, the background checks, et cetera.

What I fight so hard for is to not lose anything else and to get some things back. I want an AR 15. I want an AR 15 with all the scary cosmetic features, and I refuse to use a bullet button or a fixed magazine. I want it to reload like a normal gun, and not some neutered piece of shit.

"Careful regulation" often means "attempt to ban in every possible way except without using the word "ban". Californians already know about this. It starts with "No assault weapons" which anti-gun folks say is reasonable. They say "AR 15's are dangerous. You can't buy them." So we buy different models that are very similar to the AR 15.

So many manufacturers sprouted up making AR 15 clones that they said "You can't have assault weapons. An assault weapon has a pistol grip, or a collapsible stock, or a thumbhole stock, or a flash hider, or a barrel shroud, or a vertical foregrip." Thanks assholes, you just banned just about every magazine fed centerfire rifle in existence with the exception of the M 1 A and the Mini-14. Anger and shouting ensues. Law is amended so that you can have an "assault weapon", but only if it has a device that makes it so you have to use a tool to drop the magazine and reload the weapon, because Democrats are scared of me reloading magazines too fast at the range apparently.

Californians comply, and two flavors result. The Fixed Magazine, and the Bullet-Button. The fixed magazine is retarded. It requires you to halfway disassemble the gun and separate the lower and upper receiver in order to release an empty magazine to reload a new one. That is bullshit, and a waste of money to purchase.

The other flavor is the bullet-button, it essentially pokes a hole in the magazine release button to where you have to take a tool(most popularly a bullet, hence the name) and push the tip inside the magazine release button to release the magazine. Thus you can't do it with just your fingers.

This was ok for Californians for a time, we were gritting our teeth and just dealing with having to jealously look across the state lines, to Nevada and Arizona, where people have 30 round magazines and can reload like normal human beings, and have affordable AR 15's because they don't have a special "California Legal" market, since gun manufacturers start having to make special lower receivers for California, which makes them more expensive. This is what we have been dealing with. Some Californians have gone so far as to butcher the AR 15 and get rid of all the "scary" features to be compliant. This abomination is the result of that.

Now, they want us to perform background checks and pay a 50 dollar tax" to purchase ammunition'', a large set of gun control bills of which one of them is the above just got passed and is at the California Assembly right now. One other part is to ban the bullet-button, so now we just have those fucked up and shitty "fixed magazines". The other thing is that they are expanding the definition of "assault weapon" in California to basically just say "You know those cosmetic features we were scared of? Well we're going to just stop beating around the bush. Now an assault weapon is any magazine fed, centerfire rifle that requires a fixed magazine requiring a tool or disassembly to reload. But you can't use the bullet-button mechanism anymore."

The point I'm trying to make here is that these motherfuckers will never stop chipping away at gun rights. Any time folks in my state, the Democrat gun control paradise, have managed to find a way to be in compliance with our state laws, the states liberal legislature has found a way to move the fucking goalposts on us. That is fucked up. That is wrong. And that shows that even if regular liberal voters like yourselves say "Oh no, we have a line where enough is enough and we're satisfied." Well here's the problem you guys, you say "Oh no, we don't want to ban stuff. We just want background checks when you buy them! We just want reasonable things like not having them in the homes of felons and the mentally ill!" Well I want those things to. But here's the problem, THE FUCKING IDIOTS YOU VOTE INTO OFFICER WANT MORE THAN THAT! And because gun rights isn't a big deal to you, you don't give a shit when you vote these clowns into office and they overstep their bounds.

How does this matter on a national scale? Well it matters because what happened in California is what will happen everywhere else if the pro-gun folks aren't on their A-game to protect gun rights. The average liberal voter might be reasonable if they were setting policy, but the people they put into office are not reasonable. They are what us pro-gun folks call "assholes". They are the Feinsteins, Boxers, etc, of the world. They aren't reasonable. They don't want to negotiate any more than the NRA. They just want this shit gone, and all they'll do is play lip service and say "Oh herp derp, I respect the Second Amendment, but..." and that's where the bullshit comes in.

Gun owners everywhere else don't want to be California. That's the point I'm trying to make. Every time Californians try to comply with new rules and stretched goalposts, gun-grabbers make more rules, they stretch the goalposts a few more yards, they add a few more special taxes to pay, a few more hoops to jump through. And with all that, actual gun crime stays the same.

California is what anti-gun politicians are selling. And that isn't what pro-gun citizens want. They aren't buying. There isn't negotiation, because anti-gun legislators and politicians have proven "in the field" in their test-states of Cali, Illinois, New York, and DC, that they won't stop. There isn't a reasonable line in the sand where they are satisfied. They will keep banning things ineffectually and stretching the goalposts until being a gun-owner is such a pain in the ass that we "just stop doing it". That's their strategy.

That might not be what you are after, folks like Irene and Spades and Taoist, but that's what the people you vote for do. That's why dialogue is a problem. That's why negotiation isn't negotiation. All the actual examples in the US of gun owners at the state level "being reasonable" and "negotiating" resemble the Allies before WW 2 watching Germany swallow up a small country on their borders and saying "It's cool guys, we've had enough." before going on to the next nibble. It's appeasement.

If the Democrats would actually play ball on the gun control issue and back the fuck off a little, they could seriously get a lot of votes from the Independent and Libertarian side of things.(Well, less on the Libertarian side right now because of this NSA bullshit in the news) But seriously, there are so many folks out there like me who are fed up with the GOP because we're not jesus freaks, we're not corporatists, and we're totally cool with gay marriage and gay rights, and most of us are down with abortion. But gun rights are pretty much the issue that keep our votes either Republican, or Independent, or Libertarian.

Want our votes? Change your platform. Stop even talking about "assault weapons". Ban that word in the Democratic party. Stop talking about banning things and features. Particularly highlight enforcing current laws on the books. Talk about keeping felons from getting guns, but not regular citizens. Hell, if a Democratic candidate in my state said "Hey Californians, yeah I want you to do background checks, but if you're not a felon and not a psychopath, I think you should be able to buy an AR-15. I think bullet-buttons and fixed magazines are ridiculous. I think "Assault Weapon" is a nebulous and useless ever-changing term." then you know what? I'd totally vote for that dude. I don't give a fuck what else he's talking about, as long as he isn't talking about getting rid of college or medical for the military, or a 10 percent pay cut, then he's got my vote.

Democrats need to stop talking about what we can't have, and start talking about what we can. "AR-15's for all! So long as you do your background check, and no more California Legal nonsense or the word "assault weapon"!" That's a compromise. That's a carrot on a stick that I'd take hook, line, sinker.

edited 8th Jun '13 11:37:27 PM by Barkey

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#56180: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:31:15 PM

Can I get a tl;dr?

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#56181: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:37:45 PM

TL:DR - Barkey has seen the results of your "reasonable" and "good-faith" negotiation. The result is that everytime the paranoid anti-gun lobby gets its way, it shifts the goalposts. And then when those new rules are followed, they do it again. And again. And again.

How many times do you get to bullshit people before they finally say, "You know what, those NRA assholes seem to be able to put this dipshits in check. So, even though they're insane, they'll protect my rights."

It was an honor
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56182: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:38:18 PM

Basically Barkey lives in California which has a lot of gun regulations that don't apply at all in say, Texas, where I live. From where Barkey's standing I'm probably in Republican paradise, despite that we have folks like Cornyn and Perry running the show and basically fucking everyone over for lack of regulation in nearly everything.

I don't think we could anything near where California is in Texas because of the particularly libertarian nuttery that goes on. I'm from a state where they don't want to regulate anything!

Which just highlights the fact that there's nothing approaching a federal standard, which I think would actually help improve things across the board if there was a basic guideline everyone had to comply with.

[up]That's like saying a frying pan isn't as hot as the fire it just came off of and sticking your hand on it instead of the fire.

edited 8th Jun '13 11:39:15 PM by AceofSpades

cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#56183: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:40:30 PM

can someone tell me when the republicans will start to fade into obscurity please

i need to know how long to freeze myself for

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#56184: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:41:48 PM

@Enkufka

To pro-gun people from all across the nation, California is seen as a model for what anti-gun people want. Pro-gun people don't want California, thus they aren't interested in negotiation. They aren't interested in negotiation because anti-gun people extend the goalposts and make shit suck more for gun owners every few years when they get their way, and aren't ever satisfied. When Californians say "Hey, we're sick of this shit, we already have less rights than like, 47 of the other states, stop it!" liberal california legislators say "Fuck you gun owners! We don't care what you have to say! You aren't being reasonable or negotiating at all!" and proceed to take more of our stuff away and make life harder. A lot of the extra fluff there is actual examples of the slippery slope of California gun rights, as an example of how it happened to us.

Seriously, can we make a deal or something? Fix this prop 8 shit and get gay marriage legal again, and in exchange give Californians back AR 15's? We'll even keep doing the background checks that we already do.

TLDR: California sucks ass, the two most prominent Federal anti-gun people are California Senators, and gun owners in 47 other states are all saying "Man, I'm sure glad I don't live in California."

edited 8th Jun '13 11:42:09 PM by Barkey

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#56185: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:43:03 PM

@Ace - Now who's coming up with the bad analogies?tongue

@Cute - Perhaps when the Democrats stop coming up with off the wall legislation that makes no sense. It's quite telling that as unpopular as the Republicans are alleged to be, Democrat shenanigans quite certainly keep them from 'fading into obscurity'.

edited 8th Jun '13 11:46:38 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#56186: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:45:11 PM

you're telling me

Democrats are the ones

...have you seriously not see some of the shit Republicans have introduced i just

imma let someone else handle this im gonna sleep and dream about living in Canada

Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#56187: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:45:47 PM

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand now I'm out too, because I'm never going to friggin reach the point where the NRA seems like a sane option.

Let me put it to you this way. The NRA's philosophy has been put as "The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

The Aurora shooting was done by the shooter in such a way that there was no way for people to effectively defend themselves. He attacked a darkened theater during a loud movie, using smoke grenades to hide his position. He came with 100-Round magazines to reduce how much he had to reload. He wore $10k worth of bullet-stopping body armor.

Anyone shooting him would have to deal with low visibility, no effective cover, an opponent who did not need to reload as often as them, and the confusion of a movie theater full of terrified people.

While this may be an exceptional event, it illustrates exactly how a bad guy with a gun can kill a whole lot of people before being taken out by what would have to be a lot of good guys with guns.

Meanwhile, the day of Sandy Hook, there was a mass stabbing which resulted in 24 injuries. And 0 fatalities.

I rest my interpretation of the case and open the mic to anyone else who wants to take it. >ollies the fuck out<

>ollies back in< [up][up]Right, that's really freaking stupid and I'm in no mood to explain why nonsensical gun legislation is in no fucking way comparable to actively fucking awful legislation that republicans have put forward in every other category. >nose-grinds out<

edited 8th Jun '13 11:48:35 PM by Enkufka

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56188: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:48:33 PM

Well, the thing about fading into obscurity is that they're unlikely to do it. Both parties are locked in because of First Past The Post. They'll probably change into something unrecognizable as what they are today, like they're unrecognizable as the party they were fifty or a hundred years ago, but they'll still call themselves Republicans.

I mean, you'd have to get rid of FPTP and institute stuff like proportional representation like they have for political parties in Europe and such. (Of which there are several different models.) It's not impossible for it to happen, but it's going to be hard to make it happen.

@Maxima: my analogy points out they shouldn't pick either and go for a third option that doesn't involve third degree burns.

cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#56189: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:50:30 PM

...

oh

greaaaaaaat

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#56190: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:51:19 PM

^^

Nobody is giving me a third option of putting my hand in the sink or on the counter. As far as gun rights go, Dems are the fire, and they keep saying "Touch me! I'm cool now!" and I get burned. And I've fallen for it so many times that now I'm like "No way bro, this is a hypothetical situation and I'm only allowed to touch one other thing in the room and it has to be scorching hot, but it's not as hot to you, and at least it doesn't lie to me and say it isn't hot." And then I grab the frying pan.

Stop electing people who extend goalposts. Then we can deal. Kick out Feinstein and Boxer, for one. If Dems in California(and seriously, they run this bitch, they could pull it off) decided to let us have AR's back and to pass a bunch of additional background check bills and some requirements that weren't too outrageous, it'd serve as a great example. Shit, I might even sell the AK I've got disassembled in my closet if that happens. Unban all the banned shit that doesn't consist of like, SMG's, fully automatic weapons, and explosives. Keep the barrel length limits the way they are so sawed off shotguns are still illegal, and then treat the problem and not the tools.

Give us our shit back, push mental health, background checks, and education bills in. That'd be good faith to me. I'd vote for whoever did that. But that's what it's going to take, I'll never trust an anti-gun politician because there is absolutely zero precedent of them keeping their word and being satisfied, and even less precedent for them giving anything back to us that has been taken.

edited 8th Jun '13 11:56:14 PM by Barkey

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#56191: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:53:57 PM

The Republicans are recorded as lying as twice as much about stuff, so that really falls flat, Barkey.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#56192: Jun 8th 2013 at 11:57:27 PM

This is one topic. The GOP are scumbags, I already mentioned that I voted Obama and I'm not a Republican, I believe.

"BUT THE EVIL REPUBLICANS" isn't a valid counter to every argument. You're both fucking wrong. The Republicans are greedy for money, and the Democrats are greedy for control. And I'm just fucking tired of greedy people and want to live with my rights and freedoms intact and unfucked with.

Seriously, stop saying it. I'm aware of it. The world is aware of it. I'm DONE voting for the lesser evil. I'm voting independent from now on unless I see a serious badass step up. If my one vote could pick a Democrat over a really shitty Republican, I'd vote Independent anyway just to spite the Dems. I'm over this shit, I'm over both parties. I'm never again voting for someone because I really hate their opponent. I'm going to research all of the candidates, and I'm going to vote for the one that I want the most, fuck the odds of them winning. I'm just going to vote like an honest man and not a politician.

The Republicans are like Saruman. Evil, greedy, shortsighted clearcutting the forest. It's a known factor. But Democrats are like Grima Wormtongue. They are fucking liars. They whisper "Be reasonable" "Lets negotiate" "Look how evil the other guy is, if you aren't with us, you're with him!" But they are just as quick to turn on you and slit your throat while you're worried about the obviously evil guy. I'm not voting for either of them.

edited 9th Jun '13 12:06:01 AM by Barkey

cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#56193: Jun 9th 2013 at 12:04:52 AM

It's just so hard when no one will give anyone a chance. I thought Obama getting elected would progress things a bit. But, so far the Republicans in Congress have stood in the face of the president and will absolutely not budge.

I know that you're tired of hearing us complain about the Republicans. But what else can we do? The Democrats aren't given any chances to do anything.

The Republicans have been given so many shots by the American public, and look where it's gotten us. Maybe it's time for a change.

edited 9th Jun '13 12:06:06 AM by cutewithoutthe

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#56194: Jun 9th 2013 at 12:06:53 AM

That sounds...kind of reasonable. Now if we could only get you to drop this "The Demoncrats r gonna take mah GUNNZ!" nonsense.

cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#56195: Jun 9th 2013 at 12:11:10 AM

I just don't see where all the lies are coming in applied to the Democrats, at least when it comes to anything but gun control. Maybe I don't pay enough attention to the Democrats or something.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#56196: Jun 9th 2013 at 12:11:40 AM

^^

As I've mentioned, I have pretty good reasons to believe that in that department, I'm right and you're wrong, because I've been watching it happen over the course of the last 20 years.

^

Lying about gun control is still lying. If they'll be dishonest about something particularly important to me, they'll be dishonest about anything else. Politicians in general are that way. Right now I'm really cross with Obama about this data-mining crap, since he was the dude who said that Government needed to be more open to the public and transparent, and then suddenly the largest blanket warrant in the history of our nation is all in the national news, and there is no probable cause, which is a requirement for a warrant.

edited 9th Jun '13 12:14:59 AM by Barkey

cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#56197: Jun 9th 2013 at 12:12:25 AM

Sorry for only being alive a pesky 18 years!!

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#56198: Jun 9th 2013 at 12:17:02 AM

My perception of the Democrats is that they like to talk about how reasonable and friendly they are, but it's just an act of playing possum. Look like the victim, make the other guy look like a huge asshole. The GOP plays right into the act, but it doesn't look good on the Democrats either.

When your public relations platform consists of "Look how bad the OTHER guy is!" you should really rethink that platform.

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#56199: Jun 9th 2013 at 12:21:28 AM

The other side is full of assholes. Anti-women, anti-gay, anti-children, anti-poor, anti-everything except rich white men.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#56200: Jun 9th 2013 at 12:23:30 AM

Yes, and? What did I just say about a platform that revolves around pointing out how evil the opposition is? I haven't voted for the assholes. I voted for your side, and they aren't delivering, and are in fact against me in a lot of things that are very important to me.

So I'm just gonna take a third option and stick it out independent until something changes there. The Democrats aren't as big of assholes as the GOP, but they are still assholes, and I'm not going to vote for any more of those. When the Dems stop pushing agendas I don't like, then I'm vote for them.

edited 9th Jun '13 12:23:39 AM by Barkey


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