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TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#55976: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:15:36 PM

@Morgikit - No, no you didn't. I went too far. But then....I too didn't say shit about "shut up and wait your turn" so perhaps if you don't want to be strawmanned, you shouldn't strawman.

It was an honor
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#55977: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:23:57 PM

I think I'm a bit more afraid of the Dems getting rid of my civil liberties than the Republicans. The only difference is that the things that are problems that need to be fixed right now, such as corporate regulation, are Rep policies.

But when it comes to civil liberties, the Republicans aren't the ones I worry about. I worry about them making me a wage slave.

Actually, no, I worry about both of them making me a wage slave. Either because the Dems are shit with money and will tax the shit out of me so they can pay for entitlements, or the Republicans not enforcing fair wage standards and letting companies keep more of their profits.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#55978: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:30:41 PM

Barkey aptly sums up the point. Everyone is so goddamn wound up over their own Single-Issue Wonk they forget that none of these empty suits with lots of talk and no action is out to dick them over.

And while we're on the subject, let's clear something up about your wonderful Dems. They are the slaves of their corporoate overlords; masters named Citibank, and BP, and Northrup Grumman, and HSBC, and Sony, et al.

You think Dems (collectively) give a shit about gay rights? The minute their corporate overmasters don't find it convenient, all these bills allowing men to use women's bathrooms will END. You think they give a shit about illegals? The minute it's no longer advantageous to Big Business to have a bunch of undocumented residents; see how fast the Dems move to round them up and ship them out.

It's time to see all this talk for what it is. Saint Obama and the Apostle Biden had a lot to say about the Bush administration's surveillance of Americans. Now he calls it "balanced". Oh, yes, and remember how he vowed, in his patented hope-and-change style, that Gitmo would be closed before the end of his first full year in office, and everyone clapped and cheered? Hm....

It was an honor
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#55979: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:32:17 PM

Yeah. It's not balanced, that isn't even nearly a word for it.

I think I need to start encrypting my phone now or something. I value privacy goddamnit. I don't want to be watched all the time, I get enough of that when I'm on-duty.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#55980: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:33:53 PM

[up][up]

Okay, and?

You realize nothing will ever be done about it either way because the only way out is to get enough people to agree to vote for the sae third party to break the stranglehold, right?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#55981: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:37:13 PM

Frankly, I think that most people see privacy issues with respect to the government as not applying to them. They are far more concerned about corporations and criminals screwing with their data than the government.

The problem, ultimately, is accountability. If government is no longer seen as accountable to the country's citizens, then it has become part of the problem. Corporations also have the same test to pass.

I trust the Democrats to be more responsive to such concerns than the Republicans. Which is not to say that the Dems have been covering themselves with glory lately; they seem to be going out of their way to be the "not quite as bad as" party.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#55982: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:38:36 PM

But that's my point Midget. It CAN be done. It HAS been done before. But all of us, and I fully include myself in this, have so let this bullshit "Us vs. Them" shit that MSNBC and Fox News invented for ratings, we can't see that agree on 99.9% of the issues.

I don't agree with gay marriage, but as it neither adds to nor takes away from my paycheck, I don't give a shit either way. I hate abortion, but who the fuck is going to jail a teenage girl? I don't want immigrants coming to the country without having even seen any government official, but why deport someone who could be a loyal taxpaying citizen.

The thing is, we have to get people to care. And they don't. Sen. Murdock said "Rape is God's will" (he didn't) and everyone wanted his head off, but nobody cares Saint Hope-And-Change is basically saying "The government needs no reason to spy on you. Get over it."

edited 7th Jun '13 12:42:18 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#55983: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:39:42 PM

yes, and? Are you serriously saying you'd vote for the same third parties I would? because I assure you. anything less extrem,e than the Green party aint good enough for me :P

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#55985: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:45:00 PM

^^

I think most moderate Americans would be ok with a more moderate party, you're not exactly in the middle of the political spectrum. tongue

Commie pinko bastard! cool

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#55986: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:46:09 PM

Most of our third parties are made up of nutters too crazy for either the Democrats or the Republicans.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#55987: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:46:58 PM

Maxima, I'm not sure what your idea of an average Democrat actually is, but I don't think it really fits the reality of what they are. Especially if you say they'd stop giving a shit about equal rights. Equality is a major part of the party, and if they don't practice it, then they aren't really a true Democrat, in my opinion.

I think people don't give Democrats enough credit. It's hard to be the only mainstream, sane party in a fucked up country such as the United States.

edited 7th Jun '13 12:48:04 PM by cutewithoutthe

Meklar from Milky Way Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
#55988: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:51:14 PM

or the Republicans not enforcing fair wage standards and letting companies keep more of their profits.
The problem isn't inherently that there are not enough 'fair wage standards' being enforced. In a properly run economy, workers would be able to demand reasonable pay and get it, because their labor is actually worth that much. Remember, technology is so advanced now that, in principle, it really doesn't take very much labor (or quality of labor) to raise a person above the poverty line.

The problem is monopolies and oligarchies (i.e. near-monopolies), and government policies that sustain them. Private land ownership and IP laws both drain huge amounts of wealth into the pockets of the rich and powerful in the form of economic rent, while the legal and financial systems form a giant tangle of red tape and hidden snares that only the rich and powerful can afford to cut through.

We should live in a world where anyone can go out and contribute to the wealth of society by doing something productive with their labor. In the real world, people who try to do that will find themselves either weighed down by an ever more complex web of ridiculous accounting obligations, or sued into the gutter by some giant corporation wielding any of an ever-increasing number of ridiculous legal weapons. Unless you're already rich and powerful enough to pay the accounting and legal realms to work for you instead of against you, the only legally and financially safe thing to do is nothing at all. In other words, by these means, the rich and powerful are gradually being given a monopoly on production itself. This is exactly what they want, and it will never turn out well for honest workers or consumers.

Join my forum game!
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#55989: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:51:34 PM

@Ship: I see what your asking. But who is the alternative who wouldn't spy like this and wouldn't try to drag the country back to a bygone era even when people don't want it? The last Republican and Democrat in the White House haven't exactly been angels.

Plus many people have been protesting things like this such as the Patriot Act.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#55991: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:55:14 PM

I may have allowed my emotions to get the best of me, sorry my bad there. But I get tired of the Republicans being labelled as puppy kickers because they don't think feminism is a good reason to end a human life, because they think there's something wrong with millions of people who have no background check just showing up in the country against the law, and who don't believe everyone has to be okay with marriage being redefined to accomodate a minority (even though I think they're wrong on that point).

But honestly, I'm fed the fuck up with politicians PERIOD. They all kowtow to whoever or whatever will get them votes. The few times you get a true believer out for the cause of the people, they get destroyed via scandal or they sell out. And they do it because WE allow it.

A lesbian can interrupt Michelle Obama during a speech to demand an executive order outlawing discrimination, but nobody protest the Supreme Court saying the police don't need cause to take your DNA, the NSA can seize phone records, and Guantanamo Bay is STILL open and people are still being detained who haven't been charged with jack shit.

Fuck, this pisses me off.

edited 7th Jun '13 12:56:15 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#55992: Jun 7th 2013 at 12:59:08 PM

The problem, ultimately, is accountability. If government is no longer seen as accountable to the country's citizens, then it has become part of the problem. Corporations also have the same test to pass.

This. Thanks, Fighteer.

And in the absence of other more relevant information, all I can go on is the history of each party's involvement with various problematic issues. And on that note:

I trust the Democrats to be more responsive to such concerns than the Republicans. Which is not to say that the Dems have been covering themselves with glory lately; they seem to be going out of their way to be the "not quite as bad as" party.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#55993: Jun 7th 2013 at 1:00:28 PM

I feel ya Maxima, I'm generally pro-LGBT and everything, but I have causes that personally affect me that Republicans support and Democrats oppose, which is why I'm so torn. It does kind of irritate me when liberals are like "OH MY GOD THE GOP DOESN'T GIVE TWO SHITS ABOUT GAYS, OBVIOUS EVIL IS OBVIOUS!" and they are immediately never right about anything.

Don't get me wrong, some of the shit the GOP has been doing in the last few years is straight up evil, but sometimes I hear a reasonable conservative opinion, and liberals roll over them like a pack of wolves by association. It's like if you aren't with the social justice police and it isn't your #1 priority, suddenly nothing else you want to talk about or say is worth anything.

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#55994: Jun 7th 2013 at 1:01:19 PM

Max: The issue doesn't affect you, so of course you have the luxury to act like it doesn't matter. I live in a country where if I slip up and mention my relationship to the wrong person, I could lose my job. I'm not going to let that go just so people like you won't accuse me of being obsessed with a single issue.

Yes I voted for Obama. In retrospect, maybe it was a mistake. But I'd say the average Democrat worships him about as much as the average Republican worships Romney.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#55995: Jun 7th 2013 at 1:03:30 PM

Yes I voted for Obama. In retrospect, maybe it was a mistake. But I'd say the average Democrat worships him about as much as the average Republican worships Romney.

Yeah, same here.

Our nation really is one big giant douche v turd sandwich analogy right now. Something needs to happen to break that shit up, anything.

Can we get an alien attack or something up in hurr?

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#55996: Jun 7th 2013 at 1:12:33 PM

Bit dramatic, don't you think Morg? You do remember I'm on your side? And let me educate you a little about what shit doesn't affect me.

A gay man got a hole blown in his face in the East Village. In my town. The block he got murdered on is literally five doors down from a dive bar I frequent. He could've easily been one of the people I work with, I play with, I've fought with, and in some strange cases, slept with. So don't tell me that simply because I'm not gay the fact that the people who I care about can have holes blown in their faces doesn't concern me.

But goddamn it man, if we let Obama co-sign on fracking and tar sands pipelines, if we let Facebook and Google spy on us, if we let the government keep a porous border and allow drug wars to spill onto our soil, if we allow the government to simply drone bomb anybody anywhere for whatever reason we're ALL fucked. All of us.

I want you and I to be able to argue this issue. But that can't happen if we let the government piss away the country while they keep you and me at each others' throats.

It was an honor
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#55997: Jun 7th 2013 at 1:19:15 PM

[up]

No offense, but that you somehow consider locking the border down tight anywhere near as big a concern as drones or surveillance pisses off a mexican-american like me to no end :P

Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#55998: Jun 7th 2013 at 1:20:26 PM

So you admit LGBT rights matter now? And you can care about that issue without dismissing all the other major issues going on now? Good. You're learning.

[up]Indeed. Hard working tax paying immigrants scare me less than security obsessed politicians out of touch with reality.

edited 7th Jun '13 1:23:20 PM by Morgikit

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#55999: Jun 7th 2013 at 1:24:21 PM

Learning?? Dude, I've been here. I've been an active campaigner for LGBT dignity and rights long before I even met you. Unlike politicians, my talk is backed up with deeds.

But my goal is ultimate American freedom and dignity. Not freedom and dignity for a select few, or a specific group.

It was an honor
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#56000: Jun 7th 2013 at 1:30:20 PM

If we can't even ensure freedom for these unfortunate minorities, how could we ever for the chaotic majority.


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