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TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#55301: May 28th 2013 at 7:18:58 PM

More Tea Party groups were put under the microscope.

The fact that we are even having this conversion should be sickening. No group, no matter how repugnant to you or me, should be the target of the IRS simply because some mook doesn't like them. The IRS should be apolitical, but it ain't. If some democrats and use it, when the worm turns the GOP will squeeze the Idiot Ball.

The IRS needs reform, it should not enter politics. I'm with Glenn Reynolds, flat tax baby! Sent the taxman into the history books.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#55302: May 28th 2013 at 7:21:19 PM

I've yet to see any evidence tea party groups were put under any more scrutiny than any other group. The contrary, in fact. Or any evidence that what they did crossed any line. Furthermore, groups shouldn't abuse tax exempt status.

Once again, I repeat that the only group investigated to be denied tax exempt status was liberal. (Can someone find those sources that got linked a while back to back me up?)

edited 28th May '13 7:21:39 PM by DrTentacles

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#55304: May 28th 2013 at 7:28:03 PM

A Crisis of Authority, WSJ.com.

The IRS Scandal, Day 19, TaxProf Blog.

Groups Targeted by I.R.S. Tested Rules on Politics, at that rightwing blog the www.nytimes.com:

And the head of the Ohio Liberty Coalition, whose application languished with the I.R.S. for more than two years, sent out e-mails to members about Mitt Romney campaign events and organized members to distribute Mr. Romney’s presidential campaign literature —- But a close examination of these groups and others reveals an array of election activities that tax experts and former I.R.S. officials said would provide a legitimate basis for flagging them for closer review.

—-

And agency officials have acknowledged that specialists inappropriately used keywords like “Tea Party” and “Patriots” in searching through applications.

edited 28th May '13 7:31:15 PM by TairaMai

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#55305: May 28th 2013 at 7:30:21 PM

I'm seeing a lot of inflammatory (anti-tax, no less) rhetoric from the WSJ, but little to back up their claims the tea party was somehow surpressed, or unfairly targeted. They haven't addressed the fact that liberal groups were denied (more of them, in fact), or that there's been a massive flood of groups trying to abuse tax exempt status. Though by the tone of the WSJ article, I'm assuming that tricking the IRS is fair play in their eyes.

(Also, could you skim, and respond to my links?)

[up] Alright. So they subjected Tea Party groups (which according to sources I've seen, tended to push for tax exempt status unjustly than other orgs-and for "patriot's groups." First thing, of the list I linked, there were some liberal groups with Patriot in the name. Secondly, that makes this "scandal" closer to racial profiling than political persecution. Which is still bad, but it's an entirely different spin. lastly, I've seen no evidence that they were at all infringed, harassed, or suppressed, other than getting more scrutiny. And frankly, these are the same people who claim "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide." The patriot act is fine, but additional scrutiny on groups that have in the past attempted to abuse tax-exempt status isn't?)

edited 28th May '13 7:36:30 PM by DrTentacles

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#55306: May 28th 2013 at 8:38:00 PM

These were groups whose "social work" activities that exempted them from paying more taxes included making sure Obama was a one-term president, by the admission of their own marketing materials. The only problem is that the IRS had to investigate them at all; there are a bunch of other better-suited federal government agencies that should be doing the job of tax fraud investigation in such cases, and they're currently floundering under the sequester and a lack of appointments.

And the flat tax is, has always been, and remains a terrible idea.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
Mars444 Since: May, 2013
#55307: May 28th 2013 at 9:34:33 PM

The flat tax is a fucking awful idea. It needs to be condemned to obscurity because goddamn is it stupid.

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#55308: May 28th 2013 at 10:08:56 PM

The problem here is that some in this administration used gov'ment funds for a personal vendetta. Nixon was almost impeached for what yose guys are saying that the Tea Party was "asking for". Even Jon Stewart doesn't like this mess.

I like a flat tax because the tax code (as it stands) is more about political corruption run amok than "fairness" (A silly game, the only winning move is not to play).

The sequester had nothing to do with the investigation of these groups, this happened for years before Obama took office.

What If the Next President Is Even Worse? Asks Ron Fournier of the National Journal.

You don't like Bush, imagine Bush (or Obama) 2.0 with PATRIOT ACT, a limp Congress and the IRS snooping around.

The tl;dr of the article: fight abuses of power. It's time to pull some of the gov'ments fangs.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
PhilippeO Since: Oct, 2010
#55309: May 28th 2013 at 10:22:42 PM

I like a flat tax because the tax code (as it stands) is more about political corruption run amok than "fairness" (A silly game, the only winning move is not to play).

Even flat tax could be used on political corruption, various deduction and exemption could be added to it. And Progressive Income tax could also be simplified. Flat Tax didn't guarantee "fairness" nor "simplicity".

It's time to pull some of the gov'ments fangs.

And if gov fangs pulled; who have fangs sharp enough to stop charity malfeasance, campaign corruption and corporate tax avoidance ?

IRS investigation because Congressmen complain whether some "charity" is actually political group, IRS low-level employee got lazy and investigate charity with political-sounding name. Its not deliberate "government persecution" or "personal vendetta".

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#55310: May 28th 2013 at 10:50:44 PM

Because local government, and congress, is so much better.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#55311: May 28th 2013 at 11:32:55 PM

[up][up][up]

Gubmint took ma babeh!

More seriously, you're really starting to come off like someone willing to completely misinterpret events when it serves a narrative that allows you to demonize the government.

edited 28th May '13 11:33:31 PM by Midgetsnowman

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#55312: May 29th 2013 at 1:22:21 AM

The problem here is that some in this administration used gov'ment funds for a personal vendetta.

There's not really anything vendetta-ish about the IRS investigating obvious groups trying to fraudulently evade taxes as non-political entities when they're blatantly political. The sudden surge of Tea Party groups happened to be among those investigated because, empirically, they were some of the most prone to trying (and once again, the only one denied was of the opposite stripe). If you have a sudden surge of groups all named roughly the same thing and all trying to do shady business with you at once, you keep an eye out for those names, party be damned.

If anything, the only thing the IRS did wrong was let every single one of them get away with it.

edited 29th May '13 1:23:23 AM by Pykrete

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55313: May 29th 2013 at 3:00:17 AM

Deathpigeon, anarchists are too few and too rare on their own, and they often don't vote as a matter of principle. Ergo,no one gives a crap about pandering to them, unless they're in the form of a Trade Union or something equally lobby-ish.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#55314: May 29th 2013 at 3:17:15 AM

[up]

There is power in a union.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#55315: May 29th 2013 at 3:30:51 AM

Unions often are more harmful than helpful. They usually defend priviledges to "death", often dooming employees as, for example, Polish miners are not in demand anymore since it is cheaper to import coal from South America. That happens in country that has the biggest deposits of coal in Europe if you don't count Russia. And of course, those who benefit the most from priviledges are people in the management of the unions, not employees who actually work their asses.

My President is Funny Valentine.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#55317: May 29th 2013 at 6:35:20 AM

In other words Bachmann is dropping out now that she realizes that no amount of money and gerrymandering can make up for the fact that she is insane. I doubt she will hold elected office beyond the local level, Minnesota is too moderate to elect her to the Senate. I'm guessing she might try for an internal GOP position.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#55318: May 29th 2013 at 6:37:28 AM

For those confused by the previous post (you can't gerrymander a Senate election), Bachmann is dropping out of the House election, since she would likely lose against Graves in 2014. She never stood a serious chance against Al Franken in the Senate race, anyhow.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#55319: May 29th 2013 at 7:09:07 AM

@Katsura: and a hundred to one, that south american coal is only cheaper because the workers work in a deathtrap and their employers wont give a shit when they die of black lung nor have any financial obligation to care about that.

You want to make Polish coal cheaper? then get rid of all human rights coal workers have and force them to work 18 hours with no ventilation for half a dollar a day.

edited 29th May '13 7:09:54 AM by Midgetsnowman

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#55320: May 29th 2013 at 7:28:49 AM

[up] Polish Coal? That's cheap when compared to British Coal — here, we're having problems getting home-mined coal, especially when some things run better on British Coal, due to its geological properties.

Keep Rolling On
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#55321: May 29th 2013 at 8:32:56 AM

[up]

Nonethelerss, my point was that the reason coal is cheaper to get from some countries is because coal's a helluva lot cheaper when you get it from somewhere where basic precautions against mines exploding or black lung disease or overwork arent required by law.

Its got less to do with "greedy unions" and more to do with the fact unions prevent companies from exploiting workers.

Belian In honor of my 50lb pup from 42 Since: Jan, 2001
In honor of my 50lb pup
#55322: May 29th 2013 at 8:48:21 AM

True. But you also just agreed that "greedy unions" probably do have something to do with it. And, as it is much harder to change something outside of the country, you look at what you can change within the country.

Yu hav nat sein bod speeling unntil know. (cacke four undersandig tis)the cake is a lie!
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#55323: May 29th 2013 at 8:50:23 AM

Isn't that what basic export/import trade laws are for?

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
TheGirlWithPointyEars Never Ask Me the Odds from Outer Space Since: Dec, 2009
Never Ask Me the Odds
#55324: May 29th 2013 at 8:53:45 AM

I would totally be interested in the feasability of a pact that requires countries to have certain workers' health and safety provisions or, y'know, sanctions so they can't sell the goods. Only, I can see a lot of angry people there from the disruptions in world trade that would cause, including those it would be intended to help - would probably have to be phased in gradually.

She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic My Skating Liveblog
Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#55325: May 29th 2013 at 8:57:03 AM

@Belian: By changing what exactly? The only possible way to make polish coal as cheap as south american coal is exactly what I already described. Either engage in trade protectionism or make life an utter hell for workers and pay them nothing.


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