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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#55151: May 26th 2013 at 9:05:52 PM

Racism and the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow are the underlying reason for the higher levels of black/hispanic poverty, crime, and unemployment. They are also why we can't have universal health care, and why our political system is currently paralyzed. It's not really a huge mystery.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#55152: May 26th 2013 at 9:59:14 PM

DOJ told Fox News parent company of phone records probe

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
AnSTH Lawful Evil Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#55153: May 26th 2013 at 11:20:43 PM

Southern States make my country look progressive.

Oi! There's a mix of people down here! It's just that the stupid ones get elected by the majority of ignorant ones, and then the stupids do everything in their power to keep the ignorant just so.

I will admit it's a highly conservative region where social change is slow moving. Maybe it'll go a bit faster if y'all support my gubernatorial bid. smile

But that's a story for another time.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55154: May 26th 2013 at 11:32:16 PM

Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55155: May 26th 2013 at 11:34:52 PM

...Except, it totally did take root and was very prominent through much of the 1800s and the early 1900s. It wasn't until around the 50s that the capitalist propaganda managed to convince the proletariat that pinko commies and socialists are evul.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55156: May 26th 2013 at 11:39:20 PM

Citation needed; I've always been under the impression that the USA was Mercadia from the first colonies onward.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55157: May 26th 2013 at 11:50:29 PM

...Ever heard of Eugene Debs? Member of the Socialist Party. Very popular. How about the Industrial Workers of the World? Anarcho-syndacalist. Founded in the US. Also popular and allies with the Knights of Labor. How about the Haymarket affair and the riots by socialists around the country?

Heck, socialism isn't dead. We have an explicitly socialist senator (Bernie Sanders). Plus, the New Left was socialist.

edited 26th May '13 11:52:48 PM by deathpigeon

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55158: May 26th 2013 at 11:51:44 PM

I thought every strike was broken with police and pinkertons, that the movement was completely underground, and that it was always a strictly local affair with no overall national organization or partisanship?

edited 26th May '13 11:52:29 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55159: May 26th 2013 at 11:54:37 PM

Sure, police and pinkertons fought the socialists, but we were widespread. Even if we didn't have too many in power (though there were the sewer socialists in Wisconsin).

And there was the Industrial Workers of the World, the early Knights of Labor, and the Socialist Party. Plus, later on, the Black Panthers and other such groups.

edited 26th May '13 11:56:01 PM by deathpigeon

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55160: May 26th 2013 at 11:59:00 PM

Only notion of Black Panthers I have is what I saw on Fritz the Cat and Forrest Gump; portrayed as sitting on their hands and posturing with guns, mostly. Alternate portrayals are welcome.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#55161: May 26th 2013 at 11:59:21 PM

I think people would be a bit more open to the idea of socialism if not for some of the implications of government control that are affiliated with it. A pretty large group of Americans don't want a nanny state(I'm one of them) which is why I'm more of the libertarian mindset. I'm all for the government looking out for the good of the people, to a point, but when I start losing freedoms over it, I'm absolutely against it.

If we could have stable and well written economic regulations on business, with a Libertarian attitude towards social issues, I'd be cool with that. I'm for regulating business, but when it comes to what people are or are not allowed to do, I'd like the government to fuck off. It's why I'm pro-choice, pro-gun, and pro-gay marriage. I'm all about people keeping as many freedoms and rights as possible, danger be damned.(though there are limits)

But I think one thing that really poisons that outlook is that the immediate comparisons when the word socialism is used are several Western European countries which have values that a large group of Americans disagree with.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#55162: May 26th 2013 at 11:59:50 PM

It wasn't until around the 50s that the capitalist propaganda managed to convince the proletariat that pinko commies and socialists are evul.

While their is some truth to that it's not like their wasn't hostilities aimed at those groups before the 1950s.

An Anarchist shooting President Mc Kinley didn't help matters.

Oklahoma Governor Fallin fears ‘red tape’ will slow tornado recovery

edited 27th May '13 12:03:41 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55163: May 27th 2013 at 12:02:54 AM

Did he actually have a motive for that?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55164: May 27th 2013 at 12:05:25 AM

[up][up][up][up] The Black Panthers were essentially militant socialists and black supremacists. They had awesome things on their platform and terrifying things on their platform.

[up][up][up] Brah. Braaaaaaah. Learn about libertarian socialism, man. It's where the term libertarian originated from before it was appropriated by right-wingers who embody a lot that us actual libertarians fight against.

[up][up] It's not that capitalist propaganda didn't exist before the 50s, but it wasn't successful at getting the actual socialists to not be socialists much.

[up] Propaganda of the deed. It was a bullshit anarchist theory that the masses are all waiting to rise up against our rulers and just need to basically be shown they can bleed and revolution will come. Never worked out that way.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55165: May 27th 2013 at 12:08:01 AM

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#55166: May 27th 2013 at 12:14:20 AM

Brah. Braaaaaaah. Learn about libertarian socialism, man. It's where the term libertarian originated from before it was appropriated by right-wingers who embody a lot that us actual libertarians fight against.

So, what was libertarianism known as before? Liberalism? smile And remember, it's the Socialist part that some people don't like. Some of them are Individualists.

Propaganda of the deed. It was a bullshit anarchist theory that the masses are all waiting to rise up against our rulers and just need to basically be shown they can bleed and revolution will come. Never worked out that way.

The idea of Propaganda of the Deed still not dead, it is just that other peoplenote  are using the same idea. See the Attack in Woolwich, for example.

edited 27th May '13 12:15:10 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#55167: May 27th 2013 at 12:14:39 AM

To be sure, there were people who called themselves socialists who believed in "big government" (incidentally, the "free market" people have always had a huge hardon for dictatorship), but to say that was all socialism was about is to fundamentally misunderstand it. Basically it was a movement that believed strongly in classical democracy, and wanted all workers to control and own their workplaces according to that, as well as the larger community.

edited 27th May '13 12:17:11 AM by CassidyTheDevil

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55168: May 27th 2013 at 12:20:37 AM

[up][up]In Europe, the inverse phenomenon occurred; the Right appropriated "Liberal" as a self-identifying term. Nowadays it's mostly a Parenthetical Swearing; saying "liberal policies", often with an ulra- or neo- factor added to it, is equivalent to saying "this asshole wants to take all our jobs away and privatize everything and destroy the public sector". Basically, "liberal" = "Chicago school of economics" = "dangerous madman". Well, among the mainstream left, that is.

edited 27th May '13 12:22:42 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55169: May 27th 2013 at 12:22:29 AM

So, what was libertarianism known as before? Liberalism?

Yah. In fact, what most Americans call "libertarianism" would be called "liberal" by most Europeans, just as what most Americans call "liberal" would be called "social democrat" by most Europeans.

Some of them are Individualists.

And some individualists are socialists. The individualist anarchists, for example, were explicitly socialist, with Benjamin Tucker, an American individualist anarchist, referred to himself as an "anarchistic socialist" and many other individualist anarchist took such stances as anti-profit, anti-rent, anti-interest, and anti-private property.

The idea of Propaganda of the Deed still not dead, it is just that other people are using the same idea. See the Attack in Woolwich, for example.

But it's mostly died among anarchists.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#55170: May 27th 2013 at 12:25:58 AM

So, what was libertarianism known as before? Liberalism?

Eeyup.

Senators: Sex assaults a 'scourge' on military

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#55171: May 27th 2013 at 12:29:26 AM

Yah. In fact, what most Americans call "libertarianism" would be called "liberal" by most Europeans, just as what most Americans call "liberal" would be called "social democrat" by most Europeans.

I know, I'm a Brit. I still get confused by US Political Terminology.

And some individualists are socialists. The individualist anarchists, for example, were explicitly socialist, with Benjamin Tucker, an American individualist anarchist, referred to himself as an "anarchistic socialist" and many other individualist anarchist took such stances as anti-profit, anti-rent, anti-interest, and anti-private property.

One can be anything and an Anarchist...but that's the point, isn't it?

But it's mostly died among anarchists.

Quite. But the idea isn't dead — what are your views on that?

edited 27th May '13 12:30:25 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55172: May 27th 2013 at 12:36:08 AM

One can be anything and an Anarchist...but that's the point, isn't it?

Not really... I mean, anarchists by definition oppose all forms of hierarchy and authority, so anyone who supports hierarchy or authority or seeks either out is not an anarchist. This is why someone cannot support private property and be an anarchist as private property is a form of authority of the property owner over the property user and why every single anarchist ideology, from individualist to syndicalist to communist to parecon, opposed it and ever single anarchist group, from the kibbutzes in Israel to the Free Territories in Ukraine to Anarchist Catalonia and Aragon, did not have private property.

Quite. But the idea isn't dead — what are your views on that?

The idea is horrible, unfounded, and dumb. It's based on false premises, causes suffering for no reward, and creates bad press for the group that does it. It's both immoral and bad strategy.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#55173: May 27th 2013 at 12:40:52 AM

I'm a Authoritarian Statist Anarchist. I'm a rebel against logic. cool

Senator Schumer: New ‘Gang of Eight’ to draft rules for press subpoenas

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55174: May 27th 2013 at 12:44:28 AM

...Uh... I... You missed Fascist, Commie, and Capitalist. Carry on.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#55175: May 27th 2013 at 1:00:39 AM

Not really... I mean, anarchists by definition oppose all forms of hierarchy and authority, so anyone who supports hierarchy or authority or seeks either out is not an anarchist. This is why someone cannot support private property and be an anarchist as private property is a form of authority of the property owner over the property user and why every single anarchist ideology, from individualist to syndicalist to communist to parecon, opposed it and ever single anarchist group, from the kibbutzes in Israel to the Free Territories in Ukraine to Anarchist Catalonia and Aragon, did not have private property.

You know what I mean — although I'm sure Stalinist Anarchists exist. By the way, do you think there is a difference between private and personal property?

Well, to close this derail, my personal opinion is that I'm too conservative and practical for Anarchism — I think Anarchism is a idealistic pipedream that will never happen.

Keep Rolling On

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