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Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#55001: May 23rd 2013 at 10:53:47 AM

Function before form. Isn't that inherently rational? One might argue that a certain amount of apparent self-contradiction is, in fact, a necessary part of government - because a government must cater to the people, and the people are, themselves, self-contradictory.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#55002: May 23rd 2013 at 11:10:38 AM

The government that doesn't obey the desires of the people, at least in aggregate, soon finds itself an ex-government.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#55003: May 23rd 2013 at 11:12:11 AM

Unions rip Schumer’s deal on H-1B visas

A deal struck Tuesday to secure Republican support for the Senate immigration bill has set off a war of words between labor unions and the tech industry.

I suspect that the "gang of eight" will try and sneak this through while others focus on the whole IRS-gate.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#55004: May 23rd 2013 at 11:44:21 AM

On the topic of nuclear reactors: Fast breeder reactors, or integrated fast reactors. Look 'em up. They're 4th generation nuclear reactors that burn existing nuclear waste as fuel. Yes, we can get rid of our nuclear waste by burning it for fuel.

........China has no room to talk about political malfeasance.
This is absolutely true. That said, the discussion was regarding war crimes, and the U.S. is leading China by a wide margin when it comes to those.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#55005: May 23rd 2013 at 11:47:05 AM

[up] Goddamn it Taoist! Must you always ruin my posts with facts??

It was an honor
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55006: May 23rd 2013 at 11:47:22 AM

I dunno... Are we talking about China or the PRC? Because China, as a whole, has had way more time than the US to rack up war crimes, while, with the PRC, it's had about half the time...

I mean, "war crimes" used to be known as "standard practice and tactics."

edited 23rd May '13 11:48:16 AM by deathpigeon

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#55007: May 23rd 2013 at 11:50:48 AM

[up] huh?

  • Former SSG Bales is now doing time for his crimes.
  • Most of the Abu Ghraib perps are in prison or no longer in the military
  • Drones? China and the Middle East are in no position to talk about drones or drone strikes

Most of the false "outrage" over "war crimes" is due to Americans being involved.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55008: May 23rd 2013 at 11:54:38 AM

The trail of tears, Sherman's march to the sea, the tar and feathering of loyalists during the Revolutionary War, japanese internment, the Dresden bombings, and probably much more I can't think of off the top of my head.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#55009: May 23rd 2013 at 11:58:29 AM

Is this already under discussion here?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#55010: May 23rd 2013 at 12:00:48 PM

If you think that's unique to the US, you're either naive or America bashing for shits and giggles. ALL governments pull that crap. It's an inherent part of being a government.

Trump delenda est
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55011: May 23rd 2013 at 12:04:28 PM

[up] Oh, I'm aware. That's why I credit the US having more time to commit war crimes than the PRC for the US having committed more war crimes than the PRC.

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#55012: May 23rd 2013 at 12:06:15 PM

Then what does that say about the even older European nations? Not that being young is any bar to atrocities. Rwanda anyone?

Trump delenda est
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55013: May 23rd 2013 at 12:10:33 PM

They've got more under their belt than the US, and the Rwandan Genocide is small potatoes compared to, say, what the Mongols did in their various conquests or the devastation to Ireland by Cromwell or even the Trail of Tears I just mentioned. I mean, yes, the Rwandan genocide was horrifying, but back in the day, that would've been expected rather than horrifying.

CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#55014: May 23rd 2013 at 12:15:05 PM

Of course, comparing USA to PRC is ridiculous since past USA leaders didn't kill millions on with irresponsible communist economy policies and ideological purges. I'm so glad Chinese are Communists in name only now.

My President is Funny Valentine.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55015: May 23rd 2013 at 12:24:26 PM

...Sure, the state capitalism of the PRC's centrally planned economy caused a bunch of accidental deaths (It was definitely not communist. I doubt even Mao would've called it communist. In marxist theory, the name of the stage of development China was in was socialist, not communist.), but the US has caused a whole lot of intentional deaths from many of our policies. I mean, yes, the Great Leap Forward killed millions, but the US did things that killed millions, too, so the two are definitely apt for comparison.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#55016: May 23rd 2013 at 12:36:11 PM

Senator Cruz (R-TX) to Senator McCain (R-AZ): There are 'more wacko birds in the Senate than suspected

Senator Chambliss (R-GA): Obama speech will be 'viewed by terrorists as victory'

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi vows there will be no ObamaCare for illegal immigrants

Protester interrupts Obama speech on drones, Guantanamo

Democratic leaders say the Gang of 14 agreement on judicial nominees that, for years, kept the "nuclear option" from being used to change Senate rules is dead.

EDIT: The Great Leap Forward killed more people than the Holocaust and Stalin's Purges combined.

If we're counting that then the PRC probably wins.

Unions rip Schumer’s deal on H-1B visas

I already posted that.

edited 23rd May '13 12:47:46 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#55017: May 23rd 2013 at 12:49:38 PM

Oh for the love of...just in the post-war context, the PRC is leading in war crimes because it sticks its nose into the affairs of other countries far less than does the U.S. The PRC certainly leads the world in historical citizen deaths due to mismanagement, but that's partially because of Mao and partially because it leads the world by an order of magnitude in numbers of its own citizens to starve by accident.

Seriously, if the U.S. and China are in a pissing match over "Well, you killed way too many innocents in other countries!" against "Well you killed way to many innocents in your own country!", then both are doing pretty shitty.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
GlennMagusHarvey Since: Jan, 2001
#55018: May 23rd 2013 at 12:51:46 PM

deathpigeon and Radical Taoist get penalty cards. Also, I do, for typing in the surname of the most famous Chinese dictator, in order to search the page for it.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#55020: May 23rd 2013 at 1:02:09 PM

@Braeburn: That's mainly because there are a whole lot more people to kill. I mean, if you kill 10% of the Chinese population you'll kill a whole lot more than if you kill 10% of the German population. If there were as many people in Nazi Germany as there were in China, the death toll of the Holocaust would be much larger, and, if there were as many people in China as there were in Nazi Germany, the death toll of the Great Leap Forward would've been much less. Yes, the Great Leap Forward caused a lot of deaths, but, if you want to compare it with other atrocities, looking at hard figures is misleading. It's far better to, in that case, look at deaths per capita.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55021: May 23rd 2013 at 1:08:17 PM

Can we please fucking drop the murderousness and atrocity dick-waving contest, please? The crimes get established, they get acknowledged and remembered, and we know who did what and why. That's enough.

And the USA get a lot of flak because there is a tendency to paint them and their people as heroes, role models, and judge jury and executioner of the rest of the world in their political discourse and nobody likes that Holier Than Thou bullshit.

Of course, European ex colonists are quite fond of this little self-aggrandizing game too; it's by highlighting the contradiction between the way they thought of themselves and the way they were that Gandhi's special branch of resistance prevailed, after all. That's why the Chinese are so popular with African regimes right now; unlike Europeans, they don't lecture people about Human Rights and Geneva Conventions and so on. In fact, Europeans have come to be nicknamed just that; "lecturers".

Nevertheless, I must protest vehemently against anyone saying that war crimes and atrocities are just the way governments are;

Standing here, I realize
You were just like me, trying to make history.
But who's to judge the right from wrong?
When our guard is down, I think we'll both agree
That violence breeds violence,
But in the end it has to be this way.
That's bullshit, a self-indulgent fantasy masquerading as hard-nosed realism; it doesn't have to be this way, and if governments started being a little less short-sighted, we'd have avoided a great deal of brutal nonsense.

edited 23rd May '13 1:09:15 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#55022: May 23rd 2013 at 1:27:39 PM

That's bullshit, a self-indulgent fantasy masquerading as hard-nosed realism; it doesn't have to be this way, and if governments started being a little less short-sighted, we'd have avoided a great deal of brutal nonsense.

You don't need Governments to be a little less short-sighted — you need their people to be that elect those Governments, or keep them in power, to be less short-sighted.

edited 23rd May '13 1:28:10 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#55023: May 23rd 2013 at 4:19:39 PM

That goes hand-in-hand, old sport; short-sighted governments want short-sighted, ignorant, bratty people cause they're easier to control on the short term, but nothing good can come of them in the long term. And one of the good things stupid bratty electors ain't gon' do is vote for people who take the long view, or, if by some accident they did vote them in, have the patience to see their vision through instead of kicking them out for the next promise of candy right-here-right-now.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#55024: May 23rd 2013 at 4:28:05 PM

This is going a bit off topic, people.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#55025: May 23rd 2013 at 6:10:09 PM

the US did things that killed millions, too
I find myself curious what you're referring to, here. You might be able to make a case that the US has killed millions illegally in total, but I don't know of any single policy a la the Great Leap Forward that caused millions of deaths.

Unless you're counting civilian deaths as a result of collateral damage during war, which is stretching the definition of "war crime" to the breaking point.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

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