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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#54226: May 8th 2013 at 1:05:24 AM

So they both died?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#54227: May 8th 2013 at 1:08:58 AM

That tends to happen when different parties control the separate legislatures.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#54228: May 8th 2013 at 1:13:55 AM

That is not what happened here. The House, with a strong party tradition, passed a draconian bill. The Senate, where moderates are more prevalent (and obstruction much easier), agreed on a much softer bill.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#54229: May 8th 2013 at 6:22:46 AM

If you can't accept basic relationships between interconnected issues, then there's really nothing more I have to say.
And if you can't accept that two reasonable, intelligent, informed people can in good faith disagree on a complex and wide-ranging issue, then I'm not sure a productive discussion is possible.

Look, I'm not saying that we should just leave Mexico and Mexican immigrants twisting in the wind. I'm not saying we should just wash our hands of the issue and say "not our problem". I'm not saying that our actions haven't affected their situation, or that we shouldn't do what we can to help.

What I am saying is that we should do things through the legal system. We shouldn't just ignore the laws on the books out of some ill-defined sense of guilt over the situation in Mexico. If we want to change things, then we should define exactly what we want to change and how we want to change it, and then get those laws on the books instead.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#54230: May 8th 2013 at 6:54:37 AM

No reason we can't do both.

edited 8th May '13 6:55:15 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#54231: May 8th 2013 at 6:58:37 AM

Nobody said we should ignore immigration laws. What we need to do is recognize that they aren't working and fix them: first, by providing a means for people fleeing economic deprivation to enter the country and work in it legally; second, by providing a means for existing illegal immigrants to legitimize their status; third, by addressing the labor conditions of immigrant workers; fourth, by tackling the illegal drug trade that funds so much of the misery in Mexico et. al.; fifth, by in other ways working to improve Mexico's economy so that there is less incentive to migrate.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#54232: May 8th 2013 at 7:05:47 AM

Something worth thinking about Rubio-Schumer (Barring other names, I'll use this for the immigration bill currently under consideration in the Senate Judiciary Comittee): What does it say about the state-level immigration efforts like the Arizona law?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#54233: May 8th 2013 at 7:23:56 AM

What we need to do is recognize that they aren't working and fix them: first, by providing a means for people fleeing economic deprivation to enter the country and work in it legally; second, by providing a means for existing illegal immigrants to legitimize their status; third, by addressing the labor conditions of immigrant workers; fourth, by tackling the illegal drug trade that funds so much of the misery in Mexico et. al.; fifth, by in other ways working to improve Mexico's economy so that there is less incentive to migrate.

Personally I think we should just let everyone in as long as they aren't criminal or carrying disease.

Anyway, our immigration system is broken across the spectrum. It's not just poor immigrants who have a problem. We reject lots of entrepreneurs, even though it'd probably boost the economy and create jobs.

edited 8th May '13 7:26:29 AM by storyyeller

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#54234: May 8th 2013 at 7:28:17 AM

We reject lots of entrepreneurs

Hm. Good to know. Wasn't expecting that; I was thinking of doing a business venture in the US or two, on account of its repuation as a good place to start stuff...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#54235: May 8th 2013 at 7:28:48 AM

The job market has problems. If you just let everyone in who's not sick or a criminal, the job market will get worse. Canada has a similar problem but it's most pronounced in Toronto and Vancouver.

edited 8th May '13 7:29:24 AM by Zendervai

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#54236: May 8th 2013 at 7:30:08 AM

Not necessarily; those immigrants also create demand because they need to buy stuff. There's a certain chicken-and-egg problem, of course, but one that's easily within the grasp of fiscal policy if we have the political will to do it.

What's broken here, as always, is not our fundamental systems but the politics driving them.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#54237: May 8th 2013 at 7:30:20 AM

The job market always has problems, it's Inherent in the System.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#54238: May 8th 2013 at 7:35:02 AM

No system is ever perfect; it's a fallacy to expect it. It is true, however, that most of the time the marketplace does an adequate job of dealing with the supply of and demand for labor without requiring massive intervention. Of course, the test of leadership isn't in presiding happily over good times, but how you react when shit hits the fan, and that's where we've fallen down of late.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#54239: May 8th 2013 at 7:37:16 AM

If you do your presiding job properly, shit never gets to hit the fan in the first place; the best leaders' work is imperceptible, and could be confused with good fortune.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#54240: May 8th 2013 at 8:38:35 AM

Nobody said we should ignore immigration laws
Weren't they? We were talking about civil disobedience and moral rights vs legal rights. I thought that Karkadinn, specifically, was arguing that illegal immigrants are justified in ignoring immigration laws because, essentially, the laws are poorly implemented. I don't deny that the benefits of immigration is certainly worth the risk of doing so illegally (if it wasn't, they wouldn't do it); what I disagree with is the idea that they're justified in doing so.

Pretty much everything else in your post I agree with, though. Maybe not on the specifics (I think American immigration laws should be crafted to benefit America, not as a charity case for citizens of other, less prosperous countries), but in the general sense, absolutely.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#54241: May 8th 2013 at 8:52:57 AM

In the long run, I think you'll find that what is good for Mexico (and other struggling regions) is also what is good for America. There is only a contradiction between self-interest and altruism if you insist on looking at everything in the extreme short term.

No country has profited off of the misery of another one without being bitten back sooner or later. People have the grace of being able to die before the consequences of their actions can catch up with them. Nations, not so much.

And yes, if I was in Mexico or any similar nation torn apart by crime, I would consider it a moral imperative to break whatever laws I need to break for the well-being of my family, my friends, my self. And if dem wheels of justice turn too slowly, we have every right as human beings to jump past 'em. The laws exist to serve man, not the other way around.

edited 8th May '13 8:57:06 AM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#54242: May 8th 2013 at 9:15:42 AM

I think the point here is that looking at the immigration laws in isolation is extremely short-sighted. Yes, people are breaking those laws, but there's a much bigger picture to look at. I used to think in that sort of narrow way, but events and research have opened my eyes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#54243: May 8th 2013 at 9:37:40 AM

In the long run, I think you'll find that what is good for Mexico (and other struggling regions) is also what is good for America.
Sure, that's what I meant when I said that I agree with Fighteer's suggestions, if not for the same reasons he does.

And yes, if I was in Mexico or any similar nation torn apart by crime, I would consider it a moral imperative to break whatever laws I need to break for the well-being of my family, my friends, my self.
Right, which I've already agreed with multiple times — the question isn't whether illegal immigration is okay from the immigrant's perspective, it's whether it's okay for America to turn a blind eye to their breaking the law. I don't think it is. We need to enforce our immigration laws — we just have to make sure they make sense, so we're enforcing things we actually want to happen. What I don't agree with is the idea that we can ignore immigration laws (ie, not enforce them) just because we think they're bad.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#54244: May 8th 2013 at 10:10:22 AM

So, to be clear, you disagree with things like the California TRUST act, which are designed to force a showdown over our country's immigration policies by encouraging the state authorities to not cooperate with the fed?

Assuming that's so, what would you propose as an alternative stopgap measure until such a time as the system itself can be reformed at a federal level?

I am not myself a big believer in states rights as an ideal either legislatively or morally, but I see this kind of pressure as a perfectly natural and completely inevitable counterbalance to the baseline brokenness of our immigration system in combination with the brazen doubling-down of states like Arizona.

edited 8th May '13 10:11:16 AM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#54246: May 8th 2013 at 10:55:11 AM

[up] Look who's talking Mr Senator.

Though.

“The story of Benghazi is that, after the attack, there was an effort by some senior people to put some spin on this,” he asserted. “Because they were so close to the election.”

that is actually true...in a way.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#54247: May 8th 2013 at 11:08:20 AM

That's like saying, "Water is wet." That said, there is no smoking gun in Benghazi. The Right keeps looking for one because it is desperate for grounds, no matter how slim, to justify impeachment proceedings and/or to discredit Obama's heretofore stellar foreign policy.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#54248: May 8th 2013 at 11:19:13 AM

Insert mental image of the Democratic 2014 midterm election headquarter being run in by an excited Democrat carrying a news report of an impending Impeachment of Obama here...

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#54249: May 8th 2013 at 11:36:10 AM

Wait a minute, they're trying to impeach Obama?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#54250: May 8th 2013 at 11:39:14 AM

Not yet, I think. Without even a flimsy pretext, that would just give the Democrats in 2014 a huge boost.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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