Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
That is not what happened here. The House, with a strong party tradition, passed a draconian bill. The Senate, where moderates are more prevalent (and obstruction much easier), agreed on a much softer bill.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanLook, I'm not saying that we should just leave Mexico and Mexican immigrants twisting in the wind. I'm not saying we should just wash our hands of the issue and say "not our problem". I'm not saying that our actions haven't affected their situation, or that we shouldn't do what we can to help.
What I am saying is that we should do things through the legal system. We shouldn't just ignore the laws on the books out of some ill-defined sense of guilt over the situation in Mexico. If we want to change things, then we should define exactly what we want to change and how we want to change it, and then get those laws on the books instead.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Nobody said we should ignore immigration laws. What we need to do is recognize that they aren't working and fix them: first, by providing a means for people fleeing economic deprivation to enter the country and work in it legally; second, by providing a means for existing illegal immigrants to legitimize their status; third, by addressing the labor conditions of immigrant workers; fourth, by tackling the illegal drug trade that funds so much of the misery in Mexico et. al.; fifth, by in other ways working to improve Mexico's economy so that there is less incentive to migrate.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Something worth thinking about Rubio-Schumer (Barring other names, I'll use this for the immigration bill currently under consideration in the Senate Judiciary Comittee): What does it say about the state-level immigration efforts like the Arizona law?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanWhat we need to do is recognize that they aren't working and fix them: first, by providing a means for people fleeing economic deprivation to enter the country and work in it legally; second, by providing a means for existing illegal immigrants to legitimize their status; third, by addressing the labor conditions of immigrant workers; fourth, by tackling the illegal drug trade that funds so much of the misery in Mexico et. al.; fifth, by in other ways working to improve Mexico's economy so that there is less incentive to migrate.
Personally I think we should just let everyone in as long as they aren't criminal or carrying disease.
Anyway, our immigration system is broken across the spectrum. It's not just poor immigrants who have a problem. We reject lots of entrepreneurs, even though it'd probably boost the economy and create jobs.
edited 8th May '13 7:26:29 AM by storyyeller
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's PlayHm. Good to know. Wasn't expecting that; I was thinking of doing a business venture in the US or two, on account of its repuation as a good place to start stuff...
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Not necessarily; those immigrants also create demand because they need to buy stuff. There's a certain chicken-and-egg problem, of course, but one that's easily within the grasp of fiscal policy if we have the political will to do it.
What's broken here, as always, is not our fundamental systems but the politics driving them.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"The job market always has problems, it's Inherent in the System.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.No system is ever perfect; it's a fallacy to expect it. It is true, however, that most of the time the marketplace does an adequate job of dealing with the supply of and demand for labor without requiring massive intervention. Of course, the test of leadership isn't in presiding happily over good times, but how you react when shit hits the fan, and that's where we've fallen down of late.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Pretty much everything else in your post I agree with, though. Maybe not on the specifics (I think American immigration laws should be crafted to benefit America, not as a charity case for citizens of other, less prosperous countries), but in the general sense, absolutely.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.In the long run, I think you'll find that what is good for Mexico (and other struggling regions) is also what is good for America. There is only a contradiction between self-interest and altruism if you insist on looking at everything in the extreme short term.
No country has profited off of the misery of another one without being bitten back sooner or later. People have the grace of being able to die before the consequences of their actions can catch up with them. Nations, not so much.
And yes, if I was in Mexico or any similar nation torn apart by crime, I would consider it a moral imperative to break whatever laws I need to break for the well-being of my family, my friends, my self. And if dem wheels of justice turn too slowly, we have every right as human beings to jump past 'em. The laws exist to serve man, not the other way around.
edited 8th May '13 8:57:06 AM by Karkadinn
Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.I think the point here is that looking at the immigration laws in isolation is extremely short-sighted. Yes, people are breaking those laws, but there's a much bigger picture to look at. I used to think in that sort of narrow way, but events and research have opened my eyes.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"So, to be clear, you disagree with things like the California TRUST act, which are designed to force a showdown over our country's immigration policies by encouraging the state authorities to not cooperate with the fed?
Assuming that's so, what would you propose as an alternative stopgap measure until such a time as the system itself can be reformed at a federal level?
I am not myself a big believer in states rights as an ideal either legislatively or morally, but I see this kind of pressure as a perfectly natural and completely inevitable counterbalance to the baseline brokenness of our immigration system in combination with the brazen doubling-down of states like Arizona.
edited 8th May '13 10:11:16 AM by Karkadinn
Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.Hispanic caucus rips Heritage immigration study as ‘ugly racism'
edited 8th May '13 12:35:30 PM by DeviantBraeburn
Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016That's like saying, "Water is wet." That said, there is no smoking gun in Benghazi. The Right keeps looking for one because it is desperate for grounds, no matter how slim, to justify impeachment proceedings and/or to discredit Obama's heretofore stellar foreign policy.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Insert mental image of the Democratic 2014 midterm election headquarter being run in by an excited Democrat carrying a news report of an impending Impeachment of Obama here...
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

So they both died?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.