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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#54151: May 7th 2013 at 12:39:08 PM

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/05/05/1964651/lynch-benghazi-budget-cuts/

I think I like this guy. Heh. Edit: I mean Representative Lynch.

edited 7th May '13 12:39:39 PM by AceofSpades

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#54152: May 7th 2013 at 12:39:56 PM

Speaking of civil disobedience, has this gem of a plan been discussed yet?

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#54153: May 7th 2013 at 12:43:44 PM

If you're talking about 'rights' in a legal sense, then that's correct. But we need to be careful not to confuse legal arguments with moral ones
That's true, but I'm not sure that people have the moral right to immigrate wherever they like, either. It's a victimless crime at worst, so I'm not calling illegal immigrants a scourge on the country or anything, but what's the moral argument for the moral right to immigrate where you like, regardless of whether your destination of choice wants you there or not? (I mean this as a legitimate question — the right to leave your country seems fairly intuitive (you should be allowed to flee discrimination/persecution/disaster/conflict/etc, but I'm not clear on the basis of the right to immigrate where you please.)

The truth is that bad laws are instinctively and routinely ignored by the populace at large
While that's true, I'm not sure it's a persuasive argument, given that good laws are routinely ignored by the populace at large as well — unless you think things like speed limit laws aren't a) broken regularly and/or b) a good idea.

That said, I'm all for civil disobedience. If you feel like a law is bad, then by all means, break it as a means of deliberate protest. But keep in mind that the idea behind civil disobedience is to break the law and then accept your punishment for doing so. You can't claim civil disobedience and then try to weasel your way out of the consequences of it when the time comes. You didn't see people during the civil rights movement riding in the front of the bus and then running from the cops when they came to arrest them, for example.

None of which is directly applicable to illegal immigration because I've never seen anyone claiming that there's a civil disobedience movement with regards to the American immigration system. Such a movement would be noble, to be sure, and I wouldn't begrudge them the effort at all — but it would necessarily end up with a whole mess of people getting deported, the same as the civil rights movement ended up with a whole lot of people being arrested.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#54154: May 7th 2013 at 12:44:50 PM

[up][up] Sounds like "just needs one idiot" situation.

edited 7th May '13 12:45:11 PM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#54155: May 7th 2013 at 12:47:38 PM

Actually, there might be a lot of merit to a mass movement that goes "Hello! We're illegals! We've been here for years! We power your economy! Deport us all, and see how you like it!"

Or, better yet, "Give us our rights or we're leaving."

Meanwhile, Machete Kills.

edited 7th May '13 12:48:27 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#54157: May 7th 2013 at 12:56:31 PM

Republican Catfight! Bring out the thongs and whipped cream!

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#54158: May 7th 2013 at 12:57:50 PM

Again with the debt ceiling?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#54159: May 7th 2013 at 1:30:19 PM

This may be old news, but this person's just asking for Trouble

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#54160: May 7th 2013 at 1:37:50 PM

That's true, but I'm not sure that people have the moral right to immigrate wherever they like, either. It's a victimless crime at worst, so I'm not calling illegal immigrants a scourge on the country or anything, but what's the moral argument for the moral right to immigrate where you like, regardless of whether your destination of choice wants you there or not?

Let's get specific here: the only kind of illegal immigrants anyone is complaining about are Mexicans. And morally speaking, Mexicans are refugees from a wartorn country that has been rendered wartorn in large part due to American policies. If we force them back to Mexico, we are essentially telling them that our immigration rules are more important than their lives, regardless of all else.

This argument isn't necessarily applicable to other kinds of immigration, but I don't hear people complaining about other kinds of immigrants, either. When they do, we can analyze the moral factors in those specific situations in turn.

While that's true, I'm not sure it's a persuasive argument, given that good laws are routinely ignored by the populace at large as well — unless you think things like speed limit laws aren't a) broken regularly and/or b) a good idea.

Well, sometimes people ignore good laws, true. But bad laws are ALWAYS ignored, and with more consistency than that with which people ignore the good ones. Most people break the speed limit every once in a while because they're late or in a bad mood or something, but almost no one breaks it every single time they go for a drive. They don't break it just for the heck of it, they just sometimes make a value judgment that leans towards breaking it. Whereas pretty much everyone completely ignores truly terrible laws like 'don't show a personal recording of a sports event to a group of people.' It's a huge difference in the consistency of the disobedience that is a factor in differentiating between whether it's the law or the person that is the problem.

This is just meant to apply to individuals, btw, I'm not saying it translates over that well into corporations and other group entities. But it works fine for the behaviors of single persons as a whole.

As for applying civil disobedience to the immigration system, I think the closest we can come to that in practical terms is the various 'havens' where the people have essentially said 'it's okay, we won't kick you out even if you're not here legally.' California is the most visible example. I'm not really sure what else you can do in that direction practically.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#54161: May 7th 2013 at 1:42:28 PM

[up][up]Girlfriend already posted that above.

I'm not sure what they're thinking. They're going into an area where they know openly carrying guns are prohibited and what? They think the police aren't going to get on their cases about openly flaunting the local law? Where the local citizens have chosen for themselves what they want? That's basically going into someone's house and shitting on the furniture to see if someone gets mad about it.

I'm fairly certain these guys WANT a reaction.

edited 7th May '13 1:42:46 PM by AceofSpades

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#54162: May 7th 2013 at 1:42:40 PM

There was something similar to a civil disobedience back in 2007 in response to an extremely aggressive House bill (HR 4437, if I remember right) about immigration.

edited 7th May '13 1:43:10 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#54163: May 7th 2013 at 2:20:07 PM

Let's get specific here: the only kind of illegal immigrants anyone is complaining about are Mexicans. And morally speaking, Mexicans are refugees from a wartorn country that has been rendered wartorn in large part due to American policies. If we force them back to Mexico, we are essentially telling them that our immigration rules are more important than their lives, regardless of all else.
That's incredibly hyperbolic, and conflates several issues that don't necessarily have anything to do with immigration, but okay.

Let's take the case of someone fleeing their country because they fear for their life. Don't we have political asylum laws? If they want to use that reasoning, then they should go through that process. I don't actually think that the vast majority of Mexican immigrants actually do want to use that reasoning (their motivations are primarily economic, not political) but still. You can't simply throw out the law when it doesn't suit you. If you're going to break the law, then you have to be willing to face the consequences of doing so.

They don't break it just for the heck of it, they just sometimes make a value judgment that leans towards breaking it. Whereas pretty much everyone completely ignores truly terrible laws like 'don't show a personal recording of a sports event to a group of people.' It's a huge difference in the consistency of the disobedience that is a factor in differentiating between whether it's the law or the person that is the problem.
That seems like an arbitrary distinction that you're making without evidence. I'd argue that people break speed limit laws almost constantly, for example (the speed limit on highways around here tends to be about 65; the actual speed of traffic is usually between 75 and 80, barring accidents and the like). Still, I don't think that "a lot of people break it so it must be a bad law" is a convincing argument, even if you could prove empirically that a lot of people were breaking a given law.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#54164: May 7th 2013 at 2:22:56 PM

Grouping the "only group of illegal immigrants" into just "Mexicans" is... actually ignorant of the fact that people all over South and Central America are coming up through Mexico to get here to the US. There's a lot more than just Mexicans that come up here for the opportunities that they think it has for them.

Not that the ones pushing the bad reforms are themselves cognizant of the fact that Hispanics are culturally diverse.

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#54165: May 7th 2013 at 2:23:40 PM

[up] And it's leaving out all the people from other continents too. tongue

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#54166: May 7th 2013 at 2:25:43 PM

Yes, but we don't need to build a magic fence to keep those people out; we just have to trap them in the airports until they get tired and leave. tongue

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#54167: May 7th 2013 at 2:45:39 PM

Let's take the case of someone fleeing their country because they fear for their life. Don't we have political asylum laws? If they want to use that reasoning, then they should go through that process.

For people living in a country where you can be kidnapped or murdered any day and have no recourse for you, your friends, your property or your family because the law enforcement is all corrupt (or dead), I don't see the practical difference between wading through the red tape of asylum versus the red tape of 'normal' immigration. Either way you're placing the rule of law, even shoddy law, over their lives.

And given Mexico's murder rates, I genuinely do not see how that is hyperbole.

With respect to political asylum specifically, it pertains to persecution based on belonging to a specific oppressed group, such as a persecuted ethnicity or religion. It's not intended to apply to the idea of people in general fleeing from a country as a result of the collapse of basic rule of law.

Grouping the "only group of illegal immigrants" into just "Mexicans" is... actually ignorant of the fact that people all over South and Central America are coming up through Mexico to get here to the US.

Assuming you're talking to me, I didn't say those were the only kind of immigrants, I said those were the only kind of immigrants that receive any focused negative attention.

edited 7th May '13 2:47:26 PM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#54168: May 7th 2013 at 2:58:44 PM

Actually, there might be a lot of merit to a mass movement that goes "Hello! We're illegals! We've been here for years! We power your economy! Deport us all, and see how you like it!"

They tried that back in 2006.

Incidently, it's not just people consciously decided to break the law. There are a lot of "illegal immigrants" who originally came here legally but were unable to renew their visas due to bureaucratic red tape.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#54170: May 7th 2013 at 3:42:28 PM

Wow, thank god for the Louisiana Supreme Court.

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#54171: May 7th 2013 at 3:50:29 PM

so apparently the dow jones is going to close at a height it never has before. Conservatives all over facebook are claiming secretly all businesses are contracting and about to crash because Obama.

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#54172: May 7th 2013 at 3:51:39 PM

As someone who has a niece just going into the school system down here, that's a relief to hear.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#54173: May 7th 2013 at 4:07:13 PM

[up][up]The version I hear is that some guy is single handedly keeping the entire economy afloat and it will collapse when he gets sick of putting up with Obama's bullshit. I want to say it's Bernanke but I'm not sure.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#54175: May 7th 2013 at 4:38:36 PM

Eh, I don't really trust the stock markets anymore. Most of trades are made by computer programs nowadays.

What's best to look at is the various reports. Even if they are fudged.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."

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