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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#53576: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:38:40 AM

Seems like an awful lot of effort to buy something illegally that most people can already get from the corner store. I don't think most people are going to go out of the way just because the item they want is suddenly more expensive. I think anyone who's buying them legally now will continue to buy them legally. Or quite smoking. Too much hassle to find a dealer just for tobacco, and certainly no one wants to get arrested in the current war on drugs environment. I think you're overestimating the potential consequences just a wee bit here.

Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#53577: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:54:32 AM

Well seeing as the law also cracks down rather hard of the black market I think you'll be okay.

If by "rather hard" you mean "mostly ignore", sure.

I don't think most people are going to go out of the way just because the item they want is suddenly more expensive. I think anyone who's buying them legally now will continue to buy them legally.

Tell that to over half of the smokers in New York, Arizona, and New Mexico, and a huge chunk of the next several states down.

And like I mentioned earlier, Canada a while back imposed a very sudden tax hike that made the black market share of cigarettes more than double within the month. I want to say around 1993.

Oh, and they're also often bought tax-free on tribal lands and smuggled halfway across the country and across the border to Canada.

edited 27th Apr '13 12:59:06 AM by Pykrete

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#53578: Apr 27th 2013 at 1:08:39 AM

That 60% figure includes people bringing stuff in from another state, which will be pointless under the changes as the tax rate will be the same across all states. I'd guess that a large amount of those smuggled cigarettes are simply bought from out of state and thus will disappear with the changes.

Also I don't be see how this "The bill also aims to crack down on tobacco trafficking by requiring unique markings for shipments, demanding that export warehouses file reports with the Treasury Department and banning the sale or lease of tobacco product manufacturing equipment to people without licenses" is nothing.

The ban on manufacturing equipment sales should bring down counterfeiting (though a lot of the equipment will already be out there), and the stuff on shipments should make it a lot easier to track a smuggler.

Though you make a good point about tribal lands and Canada, still, if they're beefing up tracking with shipment markers then it should be possible to tell if stuff was meant to be being sold in Canada/Tribal lands.

[up][up] the guy buying from the corner shop isn't the one doing the smuggling, it's the place that the corner shop gets it from by the look of things.

edited 27th Apr '13 1:10:20 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Maka4 Since: Apr, 2011
#53579: Apr 27th 2013 at 1:10:41 AM

[up][up]Mmm, I have trouble trusting any kind of data which isn't published in peer reviewed journals.

At any rate, I'm not sure where this clearly biased think tank is getting its numbers from.

Mind you, there most certainly is cigarette tax evasion, and maybe even smuggling. In the east it's probably easier than in the west given that everything is closer together.

edited 27th Apr '13 1:10:58 AM by Maka4

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#53580: Apr 27th 2013 at 1:13:35 AM

[up][up]Uh, I can't see people with legitimate businesses jeopardizing their businesses with smuggling an already legal product addicts are probably going to remain loyal purchasers of. Maybe they'll more more Indian brand cigarettes. (Those seem to be cheaper around here than brands like Marlboro.)

That said, a carton of my mom's favorites costs like sixty dollars currently. How much of that is currently the tax instead of the sales price the vendor gets? Because the price has gone up before (it was fifty at some point, and she always sends me to get the damn things) but it hasn't stopped her from buying. And it's such an ingrained habit I doubt she'll ever fully quit. Maybe cut back, but not fully quit, and as a teacher she'll probably fully support the taxes going to preschool education.

And I'm keeping in mind the fact that many people testify they'd rather buy legal marijuana rather than feed into the drug war; this likely true for tobacco too, which isn't being illegalized, but is having a price hike.

Also, what is an electronic cigarette?

edited 27th Apr '13 1:20:20 AM by AceofSpades

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#53581: Apr 27th 2013 at 1:21:53 AM

[up] Also those smuggling numbers are off, as they appear to include any time you happen to be in another state with lower taxes and decide "O, I'll stock up while I'm here, as they are cheaper". I wouldn't categorise going to a different tax area to buy for personal use to be "smuggling". Smuggling implies a rather more organised outfit that's moving them about for profit.

Edit: I doubt people would realise that they are feeding into smuggling groups (which obviously do exist), as the smuggling all takes place before the consumer is involved. As long as you don't count things like you're mate from out of state getting you a couple of packs and you paying him back, as smuggling.

As for E cigarettes, they're electronic ones that give you the nicotine without all the harmful things you get from actually smoking. So no tar or anything, no smoke (though many produce a harmless vapour) and I don't believe they smell. Effectively your injecting the nicotine into your blood stream, but safely.

edited 27th Apr '13 1:26:43 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#53582: Apr 27th 2013 at 1:26:07 AM

Okay, I clearly am staying up too late because it took me a bit to parse that.

Are you implying that shop owners are going to change where they order their stock from to get cigarettes to get product that's going to have a uniform change in price across the nation? In tandem with a bill that's also going to require a lot of new bells and whistles to make sure you're getting a legally produced product? Which they can then get into trouble with the ATF for?

Because I'm pretty sure you were saying in your previous post that the shop owners were going to knowingly buy a smuggled product.

Also, no one cited any actual smuggling numbers. I stated the price of legally purchased cigarettes of the brand my mom favors to the best of my memory.

edited 27th Apr '13 1:26:57 AM by AceofSpades

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#53583: Apr 27th 2013 at 1:32:02 AM

I don't think shop owners are going to change anything. What I'm saying is that those who do smuggle are doing it behind the scenes, I think some shop owners do buy a knowing smuggled product, not many but I'm sure some do, I'd actually guess that this law would make some switch to non smuggled ones.

Pykrete appears to be saying that people are going to smuggle stuff more if this law is bought in, while I think they will do it less, much less if you count buying from out of state for personal use as smuggling.

Edit: Pykrete cited some numbers. I've actually been agreeing with you, it's Pykrete I'm disagreeing with.

You definitely need to sleep. tongue

edited 27th Apr '13 1:33:52 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#53584: Apr 27th 2013 at 2:33:26 AM

Governor Perry disgusted by California newspaper cartoon depicting explosion after deadly West blast

Obama's gifts from world leaders: sword, bicycle, liquor

Pykrete cited some statistics and because I'm to to tired to verify or read them, I declare him the winner.

edited 27th Apr '13 2:37:18 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#53585: Apr 27th 2013 at 2:53:26 AM

[up]

Sort of agree with Perry. I can see why the cartoon might be considered Too Soon.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
tryrar Since: Sep, 2010
#53586: Apr 27th 2013 at 3:52:18 AM

While I do see the point the cartoonist was trying to make, I'll agree with Perry here in that it was kinda out of the bounds of taste.

Unteresting note: that would make it the first thing I agree with the guy on. Not sure if it's a sign of the apocalypse or not [lol]

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#53587: Apr 27th 2013 at 4:00:56 AM

Eh, for me that looks par for the course of political cartoons. In bad taste, yes. Not really extraordinary, though.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#53588: Apr 27th 2013 at 4:06:30 AM

Plus, he has a point. OHSA is a joke.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#53590: Apr 27th 2013 at 11:46:46 AM

Guy's like that really make me wish they'd have to source any allegation and so. Source, cite, proof...

"You can reply to this Message!"
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#53591: Apr 27th 2013 at 11:47:48 AM

[up][up]

What a nut.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#53592: Apr 27th 2013 at 11:59:04 AM

[up][up][up] ...Sure... That's why Obama has made an effort to withdraw from Afghanistan... Oh, wait. Nvm. He hasn't done that.

edited 27th Apr '13 11:59:22 AM by deathpigeon

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#53594: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:02:48 PM

I am sure that Obama would have retreated from Afghanistan if it was possible to do so without that country falling into a civil war/being taken back by the Taliban.

And that Gohmert person...how the hell does someone like that get elected?

<Wonders about Blocher too...>

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#53595: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:04:10 PM

Probably doesn't write his own speeches.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#53596: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:04:15 PM

[up][up][up] Isn't that when we're finally fully getting out of Iraq?

edited 27th Apr '13 12:07:23 PM by deathpigeon

DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#53597: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:08:00 PM

I'm probably the only liberal that supports us staying in Afghanistan. We pulled out too early the last time, and that pretty much directly led to 9/11, and I'd rather us not repeat that mistake.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#53598: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:10:05 PM

I think we should never have gone in there in the first place, but, now that we're there, we can't just pull completely out. We need to go out slowly, building up the Afghani government as we go.

My point was, if Obama really didn't want to fight "radical islam" he'd withdraw from Afghanistan.

edited 27th Apr '13 12:10:36 PM by deathpigeon

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#53599: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:11:58 PM

[up][up][up]

The last combat troops pulled out in 2011. There might be some engineers left, as well as security forces, but I think the state department has largely taken over those roles.

edited 27th Apr '13 12:12:38 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
DrunkGirlfriend from Castle Geekhaven Since: Jan, 2011
#53600: Apr 27th 2013 at 12:12:16 PM

[up][up]Well, it was either go over there, or let the Soviets roll all over them and possibly into the rest of Europe, so we didn't really have much of a choice. What we should have done, is done a bit of nation-building before we pulled out the first time, and none of this would have been an issue.

edited 27th Apr '13 12:12:28 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

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