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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52851: Apr 10th 2013 at 8:50:36 AM

I'm not taking that scenario, Starship. That would be Fighteer.

My view is that the Democrats are as complicit as the Republicans over our current state of affairs. They play Good Cop, Bad Cop on us while the lobbyists write the actual laws. This whole "Democrats' arrogance vs Republicans' obstructionism" is a smokescreen for the real issue, one that involves the cost of living adjustment, the effects of climate change and the social programs.

edited 10th Apr '13 8:55:46 AM by Sledgesaul

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#52852: Apr 10th 2013 at 8:54:36 AM

You keep trying to blame Republicans for everything wrong in the universe rather than see many of your great leaders arrogantly refuse to accept their left-leaning vision of the country is not one that's welcome with everyone and simply trying to shove it down people's throats won't fly here.
Dems, like the Republicans when they had the upper hand, resort to forcing things through, damn what the people actually want, or what might actually be good for the country.
The problem with this is that if you ask people what they think about the issues themselves — whether it's health care, gun control, taxes, or whatever — then people are overwhelmingly in favor of them. The statistics for these sorts of polls have been brought up in this thread before. But if you ask "what do you think of Obama's health care/gun control/economic policy/whatever" (rather than just asking about the policy without mentioning Obama), responses are much more negative.

People are opposing things they support just because Obama supports it. We're positing that this is largely because the conservative media empire has successfully demonized Obama as a radical pinko Commie muslim secularist puppy-kicker. There may be another explanation, but I've never heard one.

edited 10th Apr '13 8:57:00 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52853: Apr 10th 2013 at 8:57:00 AM

Also, disabled veterans will lose their post-war benefits under Obama's budget plan.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52854: Apr 10th 2013 at 8:59:39 AM

Not true Native; but that is a common conceit.

What we "overwhelmingly" agree on is that there are problems. Healthcare is too fucking expensive, yes. Climate change is an issue, true. We can't have kids getting blown away in school, we agree.

And while the Dems come up with good ideas, they undo with stuff like "You have to get insurance or be penalized." "We're banning assualt weapons." "We're going to adopt emission standards that may or may not be applicable to our infrastructure."

When people balk at this, the Dems cry "See, people oppose us because we're Dems." No, we oppose you cause it's dumb. Come up with something we can get down with, and we'll back you a hundred percent."

edited 10th Apr '13 9:01:01 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52855: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:02:17 AM

I have an idea. Let's mandate "Single Careers".

That is, if you were a lobbyist back then, and you wanna run for office, you cannot. If you're a reporter, you cannot leave your outlet, whether it's Fox News or MSNBC. If you were an NFL player, and you wanted to become a talking head after retirement, you cannot. If you were a janitor who switched jobs to be the cashier, for instance, you cannot. If you're a CEO while also the company president, that cannot happen. If you're a lawyer, you cannot change who your type of defendant is. For example, if your defendant is a murderer, you must only defend murderers.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:08:44 AM by Sledgesaul

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#52856: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:08:36 AM

Honestly, I think lobbying is one of the bigger problems. When a company can legally buy a vote from a politician, that is a major, major problem. Corporate interests should never outweigh the people's interests, especially as companies cannot exist without people buying their product.

[up] What if you hate your job and you only got it because it was the only one available?

edited 10th Apr '13 9:09:09 AM by Zendervai

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52857: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:09:07 AM

Yeah, ban lobbying and arrest all who were lobbyists. I agree.

[up] That's fine. As long as you didn't get one beforehand, you're fine.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:10:17 AM by Sledgesaul

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#52858: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:09:58 AM

[up][up][up][up]So, the difference between "agreeing that it's a problem but opposing Democrat's solutions to it" and "agreeing that it needs to be fixed, unless it's the Democrats proposing the solution" is what, exactly?

edited 10th Apr '13 9:10:16 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52859: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:10:05 AM

Saul, I have no idea what that "single careers" thing has to do with anything being said. Are you in the right thread?

It was an honor
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#52860: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:10:41 AM

[up][up][up]I wouldn't go that far. I know in Canada, there is supposed to be a campaign donation limit of 1000$. There are ways around it, but it's part of the reason lobbying isn't nearly as bad in Canada. We still have it, no question, but it's not as extreme.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:10:56 AM by Zendervai

Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52861: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:11:31 AM

Single Career is my method for banning lobbying. It involves banning the very concept of having another job, whether it's of the "Work Two Jobs" or the "Was once a doctor before became politician" varieties.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:12:23 AM by Sledgesaul

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52862: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:12:05 AM

The difference Jovian is this; "You have identified a problem. We like most or part of your solution. Please get rid of the stupid/poorly thought-out/impractical parts and we can get behind it."

The Dems answer should be "Okay, let's tweak it," not "Fuck you, we'll just find some loophole and sign in whatever we want anyway.

Especially since we all know that when Republicans do it they're evil dog rapists.

[up] There's got to be an easier way to get rid of lobbying.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:12:38 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#52863: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:12:36 AM

And while the Dems come up with good ideas, they undo with stuff like "You have to get insurance or be penalized." "We're banning assualt weapons." "We're going to adopt emission standards that may or may not be applicable to our infrastructure."

Funny, Starship, but "You have to get insurance or be penalized" was originally a Republican idea, floated by Gingrich and company when Clinton tried to get healthcare reform passed, and first adopted by Republican Mitt Romney in Massachusetts, very successfully.

And frankly, "may not be applicable to our infrastructure"... what does that even mean? Did the laws of physics and the rules of logistics magically change because we crossed an ocean, or live in a certain longitude?

As far as gun control goes, the NRA and its political shills in Congress have made it clear that no gun regulation or controls of any sort whatsoever are going to get past them, be it assault weapon bans, clip size restrictions, requiring gun stores to conduct inventories, researching the causes of violence, or in fact anything at all.

Your excuses are laughable when confronted with the reality.

Edited to add: The Republican Party no longer represents its constituency when it comes to most issues. They sell a political philosophy of lies, prejudice, and class warfare, concealed by a smokescreen of Appeal To Freedom. There simply is no equivalent on the left.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:15:26 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52864: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:13:58 AM

I have no other way of tackling lobbying. I honestly don't.

However, lobbying isn't the problem, in retrospect, so ignore that Single Career stuff. Instead, I think corporate personhood and money equaling speech is the overarching issue.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:14:46 AM by Sledgesaul

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52865: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:15:18 AM

No 'Teer, your strawmen are hilarious when held up to reality, not my excuses.

When Gingrich or any other Republican comes up with dumbass retard plans, they are STILL dumbass and retarded.

Applicable to our infrastructure means that the US has different industry and even topography than say, Sweden, and it makes sense to create carbon emission standards that fit our model. That's really common sense.

And you once again conflate the NRA with the general populace when nobody mentioned them.

I expect better from you 'Teer.

It was an honor
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#52866: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:15:47 AM

@Sledge: That is a terrible idea. Single career wouldn't just apply to lobbyists it would apply to everyone.

TheGirlWithPointyEars Never Ask Me the Odds from Outer Space Since: Dec, 2009
Never Ask Me the Odds
#52867: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:15:59 AM

[up][up][up] That was... approximately what I wanted to say but was having a hard time articulating, Fighteer. Thanks.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:16:25 AM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic My Skating Liveblog
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52868: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:16:29 AM

The Heritage Foundation came up with the Affordable Care Act. Romney implemented it in Massachusetts.

Who owns the Heritage Foundation? The Koch brothers.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#52869: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:18:42 AM

"When Gingrich or any other Republican comes up with dumbass retard plans, they are STILL dumbass and retarded."

Except that their plan (a) was sold as a reasonable conservative alternative to universal healthcare, (b) was implemented and proven to work. So what's dumbass and/or retarded about it, other than the fact that it isn't fully nationalized like all other First World countries? You realize that in a national system, you pay for everyone's healthcare automatically through taxes and you have no choice about being enrolled. So doesn't this version give you more FREEDOM, because you can still choose not to be insured (even though you pay a penalty)?

"Applicable to our infrastructure means that the US has different industry and even topography than say, Sweden, and it makes sense to create carbon emission standards that fit our model. That's really common sense."

No, it's bullshit. Those are reasons why we might adapt regulations in some ways, but not reasons to ignore the problem entirely.

"And you once again conflate the NRA with the general populace when nobody mentioned them."

The general populace largely supports gun control, Starship.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:19:43 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52870: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:19:17 AM

Wildcard: I apologize if it makes no sense.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:20:47 AM by Sledgesaul

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#52871: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:23:21 AM

Fighteer the point I'm making is that I don't disagree with anyone's plans on the basis of what party your in.

If a gay Nazi (just go with me on this one) said she believed the rich have a right to keep more of their money, I'd say "Dude, I agree."

I oppose compuslive healthcare because I feel people should be allowed to make their own choices and suffer the consequences thereof. So if you don't want insurance, then you just don't have insurance, but you can't bitch when the hospital refuses to see you.

Of course, I realize my Machiavellian view isn't the most popular, so...

[up] Who's talking about ignoring the problem entirely???

[up] Yes, the general population is. And here's a news flash 'Teer, much of the NRA's membership also wants and supports sensible restrictions.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:25:05 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
TheGirlWithPointyEars Never Ask Me the Odds from Outer Space Since: Dec, 2009
Never Ask Me the Odds
#52872: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:23:30 AM

Maybe something to at least stop lobbyists from just writing bills for pols to sponsor pretty much blindly. If they have to write them themselves maybe they'll at least get more scrutiny.

[up] Understand why the mandate was deemed necessary, Starship. Insurance providers can no longer deny you for preexisting conditions, so you can always sign up if you get something unexpected. And hospitals are required to treat emergencies.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:26:28 AM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic My Skating Liveblog
Sledgesaul Since: Oct, 2011
#52873: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:24:40 AM

... dammit, why didn't I think of that? [up]

Well, there's no law even saying that lobbyists write the laws for the politicians. Nothing permitting it, nothing prohibiting it.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:25:30 AM by Sledgesaul

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#52874: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:27:13 AM

Starship, it's not compulsive. Justice Roberts declarex that the penalty is just a conditional tax and it's fine for you to just opt out and contribute less. He eliminated the stigma.

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#52875: Apr 10th 2013 at 9:27:17 AM

I'm of a mind that even money being able to be injected into the political system indefinitely is not necessarily the central problem so much as it is that we currently are unable to track said money's movements. As long as voters have a way to punish politicians who accept specific bribes and the companies who put up the bribes by taking their votes elsewhere, then there's still checks and balances in the system. Maybe one guy gets to yell louder, but enough smaller voices in unison can still drown him out.

Unfortunately what we have now is an environment where political funding can be concealed until it's no longer relevant. Remember the Colbert PAC? Yeah, all that stuff he was parodying is still around.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.

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